01/08/14 – Michael Maharrey – The Scott Horton Show

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That's modern times magazine at moderntimesmagazine.com All right, y'all welcome back to the show I'm scott horton.
This is my show the scott horton show and Our guest today is michael maheri from the 10th amendment center That's 10th amendment center.com and also off now dot org.
Uh, welcome back to the show.
How are you doing?
I'm doing good scott.
Thanks for having me back on man Uh, well, i'm very happy to have you here and uh, very happy to see the news of all the success you guys are having Uh, tom wood says roll it back and you guys says all right then and then you're actually doing it You're not just trying you're actually rolling back The national leviathan state in america.
Tell us all about your latest successes Well, I tell you what it is.
It is pretty exciting.
Uh, we've got the Legislative sessions, uh in the states starting up here Uh this week and we'll be continuing to do so in the next week or so and we've already got three states that have Uh Moved forward with introducing our fourth amendment protection act the uh, the full bill dealing with the nsa at the state level We've got arizona Which we talked about last time I was on the show and then uh this last week california Joined, uh joined the fight with a bill introduced in a bipartisan manner We've got a democrat and a republican senator that have uh joined together to introduce the bill there and then on the same day A representative in oklahoma introduced the bill.
So we've got those three and we've also got uh Kansas and missouri who are doing bills that don't go the whole distance with the nsa nullification But they do deal with data sharing.
Uh, their bills would prohibit, uh, the use of any Illegally unconstitutionally gathered information on people from being used in state court So essentially we've got five states already that have joined the fight to push back against unconstitutional and uh Immoral nsa spying wow, that is absolutely incredible to think of that and you know, um This is meaningful.
I read that Liz cheney before she had to drop out of her senate primary run there In montana that even though on cable tv news when she was back east she was pro syria war and Pro nsa spying whenever she was at home on the campaign trail in montana or wyoming, uh, she had to uh, basically lie and pretend to be against the war in syria and against nsa spying so uh, this is you know, it's one of those things where especially like we saw really crystallized in the In the uh with the run-up to the almost war in syria there where elite opinion is solidly behind Uh the intervention and the american people in their mass and in a very mainstream even swing votary kind of way where just kind of everybody left right and centrist moderates and independents and know nothings and know everything's and and academics and everybody um who doesn't live in new york and dc basically is uh of one mind on this kind of thing and it seems like uh, I mean, it's almost unbelievable to me but it it really does seem like local politicians are getting the idea that they better get their act together and get out at the front of this parade because the American people want their bill of rights back That's absolutely right, you know, and that's the beauty of working at the state and local level.
There's a much greater Power of grassroots and and like you said, it's pretty clear.
The grassroots are solidly against the warfare state They're solidly against the spy state They want their freedoms back.
They just want to live their lives They don't want to be running around all over the world trying to trying to believe be the world's coffin And all of this stuff.
They just want to live their lives.
They want to be left alone that's where the great mass of thinking is in this country and and I think we're seeing that play out in these state legislators because State legislators are a little bit more in tune with with their constituents You get these congressmen and they go up to dc and they don't even come home half the time.
They're insulated They don't know what their constituents are thinking our state legislators, you know I babysat my state senator's kids when they were little so there's a lot more intimate relationship between state Legislators and the people and I think they're a little bit more in tune with this stuff and and you know They understand the threat that congress and dc is to their own power And their own uh, their own authority to do things in their state So I think this is a powerful movement and I think you're not even just looking at the nsa But looking in general this teaches us that we can get things done If we'll focus on localism instead of trying to solve all of our problems with one big centralized massive gobbledygook in washington dc Well, and you know, I think that's the thing that it's especially hard for people uh on the left to get over is uh, the fact that the white supremacists of the past basically use state's rights as their excuse and And or you know the state's reserve powers and the limited powers of the national government to intervene Uh on those matters they basically or on any, you know matters outside of their constitutional jurisdiction And they basically drag that doctrine uh down with them as they were finally, you know destroyed as a as a political movement in america the the pro jim crow factions and but so now Uh, especially after the civil war and then the civil rights movement on the left The national government has the reputation as the ones who when it comes down to it They have to intervene to protect the people from the state governments and they don't have very much experience at least they don't seem to see much experience in uh The state standing up to the feds and protecting their rights from the feds But of course with medical pot and and other issues as well The states have done exactly that but they still they're very hung up because of the civil rights movement Even though you know the idea that if if we really repeal that the national government's jurisdiction to way back the way it was We still wouldn't have jim crow come back in the south now I mean, come on, those days are gone Anyway, but it's still that lingering idea that the national government is a better protector Of individual rights than the states Yeah, it's you know, it's sad that our our historical memory is as short as it is And you know, i'm not going to make excuses for the for the segregationist and the racist in the 1940s and 1950s It's a stain.
It's a stain on on our character But you know, if you go back part of the civil war It was the national centralized power that was protecting and defending slavery the south depended on national centralized power To maintain that institution and it was actually northern states that were appealing to state sovereignty in these three very same ideas to protect Runaway slaves and to battle the horrible fugitive slave act So, you know if you go back a little farther you see the exact opposite historically.
It was Decentralization that we were looking at to protect the rights of minorities not centralized power, you know, even more recently I think if you're an american indian, you're going to have a little bit more dubious view on the uh, On the veracity of the federal government protecting you Right and you know what?
Here's the thing too is For some reason well, I guess I understand pop makes people giggle, right?
And so it's sort of it has it's all about getting high and so it has sort of a trivial sound to it just the issue does but It's not the conservatives whoever are well, I mean there are some don't get me wrong, but generally speaking It's liberal types who are concerned about the poor and the minorities and the powerless being completely persecuted By the war on drugs and especially the war on weed because that's the drug that more people use You know than anything as far as illegal drugs go in america and um And so, uh, you know, the national government certainly, uh seems to be at least so far.
They're the last ones to give on this.
It's it's liberals and leftists and libertarians on the state level who are getting weed legalized for medical purposes and now For you know any old purpose across the country National government and that ain't nothing just because weed sounds silly or something like that.
That's not nothing That's you know people no longer being kidnapped and kept in jail and maybe even killed During the enforcement of those laws their lives ruin their families destroyed perhaps their businesses, whatever their employment Their ability to to seek future employment.
It is a really really big deal the war on pot and it's Localism is the way that that war is being fought by the good You're absolutely right.
It's being fought and won and and you make a really really good point You know that that hammer falls disproportionately on blacks hispanics and poor, you know They're the ones that are getting the the busted thrown in jail You've got you've got young black males who you know Get busted with the with an ounce of weed on them and all of a sudden they got a criminal record And then you've got a poor guy that that has a difficult time in the job market to start with He's got a criminal record now I mean, it's just absolutely horrible and and you look at the number of people that have been caged on the war on drugs and You're right.
I don't think people realize the significance of of this battle to legalize marijuana You know, there are the people that still snicker and they go, you know So america's going to pot and and and all of this silliness, but this is a really fundamental issue And you know, you know even just looking at it from the the medical uses of it, you know The idea that you're going to put somebody in jail because they found a way to relieve their pain You know dealing with chemotherapy or all these different diseases that we're finding that marijuana can be helpful with How how horribly immoral is that i'm going to put you in a cage because you're looking for a way to get relief And even on a more fundamental level level when you start talking about The government the federal government these guys in washington dc telling me what I can and cannot put in my body It's really kind of obscene when you break it down and understand the core of the issue It's just not about getting high and being able to giggle It's really more fundamental than that and I really wish people would wrap their heads around that idea Right.
Yeah, absolutely.
All right, and now um So, yeah, we still got a few minutes for the break, uh, let's talk a little bit more about this fourth amendment protection act What exactly is in there and you said there are two different?
Levels of it basically so far.
I think you said missouri and kansas.
They're going halfway But even that halfway sounded pretty good there Yeah, the halfway is actually huge and and really the the the full bill deals with four areas It deals number one with resources It prohibits state participation or state providing material support to the nsa So, uh, you know, you got a state like utah where the city of blufffields is providing the water We're looking at ways to say we're going to turn that water off You're going to have to find some other way to get your water You're not going to get it from a state or a subdivision of the state So that's an aspect number two You've got the data sharing and you know I think this is probably one of the most significant and impactful parts of it.
We know that the nsa is sharing Unconstitutionally gathered data with state and local law enforcement We know for a fact that most of this data has absolutely nothing to do with the war on terror terrorism It's for criminal investigations.
We know this is being used to prosecute people with the second amendment or fourth amendment protection act this Data becomes inadmissible in state court.
It becomes absolutely useless So the nsa can share it with state and local law enforcement But they're not going to be able to use in a criminal trial defense lawyers Track down where this information came from and have it thrown out as evidence And I think that's a huge important part of this and that's the areas that the kansas and missouri bills address You've got an area we're gonna we're gonna have to take a break here in just a second So we'll we'll save your other two major points there Uh, but so far we've got the sharing of resources such as uh Trying to turn off the water there in utah and we're going to focus more on that in the other segment as well But then what you're talking about this data sharing is huge in case anybody missed it this the stories uh revealed by the snowden documents about the nsa basically laundering information about Mostly low-level criminal activity drug black market stuff, uh, mostly To to uh federal local and state police and having them Lie how they came up with the probable cause to begin criminal investigations and prosecutions of people and on a wide scale I mean this is huge so, uh Hold it right there.
We'll be right back with michael.
Meharry from the 10th amendment center 10th amendment center.com off now.org Fact the new nsa data center in utah requires 1.7 million gallons of water every single day to operate Billions of fourth amendment violations need massive computers and the water to cool them That water is being supplied by the state of utah Fact there's absolutely nothing in the constitution which requires your state to help the feds violate your rights Our message to utah Turn it off It off No water equals no nsa data center visit off now.org All right, so welcome back to the show i'm scott horton, this is my show the scott horton show We're on the line with michael meharry from the 10th amendment center They're doing great work on all kinds of issues Uh, but right now we're talking about the national security agency like you just heard in that commercial Uh the off now campaign there for utah.
Um, so, uh the um What's it called again?
The michael the the fourth amendment, uh restoration act protection fourth amendment protection protection act Uh, and you say uh part one is deny state resources to the nsa That they would use to violate the rights of any citizens of those states And then two you said was the data sharing where the nsa is laundering all their warrantless wiretapping information through law enforcement agencies and using it against people it would ban that and I think you said would Investigate all that get to the bottom of that throw those convictions out or that those that uh that evidence out something like that Uh, if you could elaborate on that, that'd be fine And then also, uh, you're going to continue the the two more major points in this model legislation Right.
Well the the data sharing, you know, like like we were saying we know that they're using this for for basic criminal investigations most of it's We're on drug stuff that we've already talked about and Essentially what this would do is make it inadmissible in court So you get some poor guy that's been drugged in defense attorney starts tracking down the the case built against them And uh good defense attorney is going to find out where this information came from and dig and do subpoenas and whatnot Finds out that this came from the nsa and was obtained without a warrant.
It's going to toss all that evidence out So it's going to protect people from having evidence used against them That was been gathered without a warrant without any kind of constitutional due process So, you know, like I said, I think that's probably the the thing that will have the most immediate impact in this This legislation and you know what I mean, I gotta say My limited imagination anyway, other than like abolishing hydrogen bombs and stuff like that This is just the most important thing of all if they can use their unlimited surveillance power against You know the imaginary ussr or islamo-fascist terrorist caliphate out there that they're fighting or whatever it is If they can unleash all of that against the american people and go on unlimited fishing expeditions against us all take any violation that they find and then go ahead and turn that over to any local state or Federal agency in charge of enforcing those laws or regulations or whatever it is We will all be I mean if if in other words This is kind of the rubicon another rubicon a major one if they get away with this if there's no rollback on this issue Then that becomes license for them to do this whole scale even officially to just go ahead then and take whatever they have on any of us Uh and and give us all give them all the more motive to data mine all of that information for any law That anyone might be in violation of any tax.
They might not have paid or anything any association with anyone that maybe they shouldn't have I mean we will live in an absolute nazi nightmare in this country If this line in the sand is not drawn and pushed back right now Absolutely, right, you know senator kelly ward who's uh going to be sponsoring the bill in arizona She made a really really good point Uh in her press release She talked about the whole idea of national security and addressing this idea of oh What about national security?
You know the nsa is to protect us from national security and what senator ward said was that there is nothing That's more important in terms of national security than protecting and defending the constitution In protecting those basic principles of due process and and you know Privacy and knowing that the government just can't arbitrarily run in and search through your stuff I mean this if you get down to it this nsa stuff is no different than having some cop Walk up and grab all the mail out of your mailbox or walk into your house and pull out all your email and read for it Through it just to see oh, you know What's this guy up to and you're absolutely right that line in the scene has got to be drawn That is the number one national defense issue without that you can talk about terrorists and whatever other stuff These people want to bring up that's irrelevant because without Basic protections without respecting the rights of individuals None of the rest of it matters All right.
And now so get to uh, what else this model legislation does Yeah, we got part three deals with the incestuous relationship between academia and the nsa 160 schools in the united states right now have relationships with the nsa and they're uh Under the utopian orwellian name of national centers for excellence and basically they're uh partnerships with the nsa and Some of them are uh deal with recruiting and training future spies and some of the relationships are Dealing with research and development for the nsa so they can find new ways to spy on you And some of the schools actually do both but you've got 160 schools with these relationships States that pass this fourth amendment protection act the full bill it would Create a situation that would eliminate these partnerships In state-run schools since the states do have power over their state university system, so it would Prohibit any new schools from joining this uh centers for academic excellence business and then it would also address Getting rid of the relationships that already exist So that's pretty cool too because we don't want our our kids, you know learning to spy on mom and dad That's pretty uh pretty gross And then the final piece of the puzzle the fourth piece would deal with Corporations who choose to do business with the nsa and you can't stop them from doing it You know, you can't say you can't do business with the nsa But what the state can do is say if you do business with the nsa you're not doing business with the state So, you know somebody comes along and is a vendor for the nsa center in utah The state of utah would effectively say you're not eligible to bid for any contracts at a state or local level here in utah So hopefully just a way to disincentivize some of these private corporations from doing business with the nsa and then what we'd like to do down the road is really put a lot more public pressure and begin outing some of these Companies that are cooperating with the nsa and put that public pressure on them Right.
Well, and and that's just setting the stage for a great fight too If you could get a state government to pass a bill like that Of course, it would go to court and the whole thing just the fight itself just like on all of this stuff if you could just get Um, you know, we've got these bills introduced here and there if we can start getting this stuff really passed That's going to do so much to just bring more attention to the issue and this is going to be a long hard fight But a few early successes like this and and give more and more state Legislators across the country reason to believe that their fate is hung up on being on the right side of this issue their political uh fortunes that is uh hung up on being on the right side of this issue, then You know It ain't going to be perfect.
We probably can't roll it all back to 2000 or anything like that not that it was great then but um Uh, you know, we can roll it back some right.
Yep Every every step that you can take and you know each step of the way it builds momentum.
It builds Popular support and this is an issue, you know, we kind of touched on this earlier This is an issue that I think it's waking up a lot of people.
They kind of basically don't pay a lot of attention You know, they don't get too bent out of shape.
Maybe they go out and vote for their their r or their d Every four years, but generally don't pay much attention But you know when you start hearing over and over again that you've got this Institution that is spying on you and going through emails people start to kind of look up and you know Pull their heads up from off the football game and go.
Well, and I think it's really getting a lot of people Angry and in at least modestly plugged in They weren't necessarily active before and I think that's a good thing if we can get the people To recognize what their government is doing to them Maybe we'll get a little bit more action and more grassroots action You get the more success you're going to have and i'll be honest with you I really think that this bill has a good shot at passing in some of these states particularly in california You know, we've already got the template there Having passed the non-cooperation with the indefinite detention We've already got some good coalitions that are built there and the fact that this is a bipartisan bill we've got a guy that that uh, it's a democrat that's got a strong reputation for environmental issues and for uh, Civil liberties issues and well, that's how we've got a republican.
They've they've working together saying, you know Let's put aside whatever else we want to bicker about This is important enough to fight together.
I really think this this has a shot of passing in california of all places All right.
So to the listeners of this show, what do they do?
Other than just look at off now.org.
What do they do to really make a difference on this issue?
Well, I want them to go look at off now.org and then I want them to take the next step and I want them to Click on the link on that page that gives you the model legislation And download it and then find out who your state representative and your state senator are and email them A copy of that model legislation and a short note saying hey consider introducing this in my state I want to be protected from nsa spying Directing to the off now so that they can see that it's on sound legal footing and Then follow up with a phone call and say hey, did you get this?
I really want you to introduce this because that's the key we want to you know We've got three states now and and and two others with uh with uh, fourth amendment protection light So we've basically got five states If we can get 25 states, then we're really talking about a huge movement So, uh, that's what we need We need people to send this to their state representative and their state senator and ask them to introduce it Right.
All right.
Well, it's uh sure.
It's great work that you guys are doing.
I sure appreciate it I appreciate your support in this show and I appreciate the chance to support Somebody who's actually doing something about this stuff and and really getting the job done and rolling it back Like you said the the great success, uh with the nullification of the ndaa military detention there in california I mean, that's huge.
And then of course the pot and the gun victories y'all have had and all that so Um, that's uh off now.org everybody the nsa's achilles heel.
Thanks very much.
Michael Thanks for having me man.
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Maybe your group should hire me to give a speech Well, maybe you should i've got a few good ones to choose from including how to end the war on terror the case against war With iran central banking and war uncle sam in the arab spring the ongoing war on civil liberties And of course why everything in the world is woodrow wilson's fault But i'm happy to talk about just about anything else you've ever heard me cover on the show as well So check out youtube.com Scott horton show for some examples and email scott at scott horton.org for more details.
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