11/07/13 – Will Grigg – The Scott Horton Show

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All right, y'all, welcome back to the show.
It's the Scott Horton Show.
I'm him.
That's why I named it that.
Our first guest today is the heroic William Norman Grigg.
Will Grigg.
That's what they call him.
He writes at his great website, ProLibertate.
FreedomInOurTime.blogspot.com.
Hey, really, bookmark that one.
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And the book, of course, is Liberty in Eclipse.
Welcome back to the show.
How are you doing, Will?
Scott, it's always great to be with you.
Thanks so much.
Good times.
Very happy to have you here.
Tell me, have the cops raped or murdered anybody in America lately?
I'm sure that's going on even as we speak.
But one really conspicuous example of this was publicized just a couple of days ago in Deming, New Mexico, involving a 53-year-old man named Dave Eckert, who last January had the misfortune of coming to the attention of the local police as he pulled out of a parking lot at Walmart.
One officer claimed to have seen him fail to come to a full stop and radioed ahead to a second officer to be on the lookout for this brown, 1990s vintage car that Mr. Eckert was driving.
So he was stopped by the second officer on the basis of a report that he had run through a stoplight, and he was given a traffic citation.
And as a result of this stop, Mr. Eckert was taken into custody and spent the next 14 or 18 hours undergoing what can only be described as sexual torture on the orders of the police with the connivance of medical professionals in Silver City, New Mexico, on the basis of a warrant that was issued by an assistant district attorney by the name of Daugherty.
The rationale was that his behavior evinced that he might be smuggling narcotics in his rectal cavity.
And after the traffic stop began, a thug scrum of about 12 police officers assembled, one of whom had a canine officer named Leo, who's not certified as a drug dog in New Mexico, hasn't been certified for the last two years.
He said that Mr. Eckert was known in Hidalgo County, where he resides, as somebody who smuggles drugs in his rectal cavity.
And on the basis of what was either unsubstantiated gossip or a lie that was invented at the scene, an affidavit was procured permitting a search of Mr. Eckert's vehicle and also a search of his body cavity to determine if he was indeed concealing narcotics.
The search of his vehicle turned up negative, and the search of his body turned up negative as well, as Fletch said in the movie, was not for a lack of looking, because once he was taken out of the jurisdiction and in violation of the terms of the search warrant to Silver City, he underwent multiple digital rectal exams, at least two abdominal x-rays, three forced enemas, and a colonoscopy.
This was all done over his objections, which means that these were acts of object rape.
If you invade somebody's intimate anatomy against that person's permission, you're committing object rape.
It states as much in the state statutes of every state I've studied on the subject.
This was done, once again, on the basis of something that doesn't reach the threshold of reasonable suspicion, much less probable cause.
I've got the affidavit here.
It was just recently publicized, just recently made available by Mr. Eckert's attorneys.
And line five of this affidavit, which was filed by an officer by the name of Chavez, it states, while speaking with Mr. Eckert, I did notice that he was avoiding eye contact with me as I asked him for his driver's license registration and proof of insurance.
He was avoiding eye contact quite possibly because he was looking for the documents.
It might be that he wanted to avoid eye contact with the police because he didn't want to provoke the police.
That's not suspicious.
Line six says, as Mr. Eckert handed me the documents that were requested, I did notice his left hand began to shake, at which time I had Mr. Eckert step out of the vehicle.
Now, one of the reasons why Mr. Eckert was acting nervous, I believe, is because the previous September, September 6th of last year, he went through almost exactly the same experience about two blocks away from his home.
He was stopped in his home, which is a little town not far from Deming, and he was told by the police officer that he had a cracked windshield and he was given a warning rather than a citation.
And as he turned to go, the police officer pulled the standard Columbo routine, which is, I just have a few more questions.
Just one more question.
He wanted to engage Eckert in conversation to try to build the traffic stop into a drug search.
That's what police are trained to do.
If you take a look at the training material of Denny Post Academy, they're encouraged to build every stop.
Every contact with the public is to be turned into an investigative opportunity, and owing to the incentives that exist, they almost become, they almost always become narcotics searches or narcotics investigations.
Eckert, at that point, said, you told me I'm free to go.
Am I free to go?
And the deputy who stopped him said, well, that's rude.
And on the basis of your rudeness, I'm going to have to search your vehicle.
And so they brought in the drug dog.
They brought in several other police officers.
They impounded his car.
They searched over the course of the next day.
And of course, that means that he had to pay the impound fees.
And it all turned up negative.
There was no probable cause.
There was no reasonable suspicion.
There was no evidence found that he was involved in any way, neither consuming or selling narcotics.
But he underwent this experience the previous September.
And I suspect, on the basis of what I've read, in this case, I've read most of the documents that have been made publicly available, is that his attitude was noted, as the commissar famously said in Dr. Zhivago, the fact that he had asserted his rights, however politely, and he had made himself a little bit obnoxious to the sainted enforcement cast there in Hidalgo County and the environs, that he was somebody who was under the scrutiny of the police, which explains why there was more than one police officer keeping tabs on him that night in January that resulted in another experience where he was understandably nervous.
He was under the scrutiny of the police.
He'd had bad experiences with them before.
His body English, his body language, is going to be that of somebody who's uncomfortable in the presence of the police.
And quite frankly, what decent person isn't uncomfortable in the presence of an armed stranger who claims a license to inflict aggressive violence on you?
But that was line six of the affidavit.
You go down to line eight, the arresting officer.
And by the way, he was never told he was under arrest, which is why he was denied a phone call.
He was handcuffed and taken into custody, and he was kept in custody for the better part of a day, but they insist this wasn't an arrest, which is why he wasn't allowed to call an attorney.
Line eight of this affidavit says, while Mr. Eckert was standing outside of the vehicle, I did notice his posture to be erect, and he kept his legs together.
A short time later, I informed Mr. Eckert that the uniformed patrol officer was coming to issue him a citation for the stop sign violation.
Several lines later, we read in line 12 of this affidavit, I asked Mr. Eckert if I could search his person for any illegal narcotics and or weapons.
At that time, he stated that he had a problem with me searching his person.
That, of course, is entirely understandable.
You don't want to have your bodily integrity violated.
And then the agent, the officer said, I then informed Mr. Eckert that an open-air search was going to be conducted on the vehicle and reminded him that he had given me verbal consent to search his vehicle as well.
That is a lie.
That's something Mr. Eckert denies.
I'm of the opinion that where there is a conflict in an account between a citizen and a police officer, you should assume that the police officer is lying because police officers are trained to lie, they're encouraged to lie, they're allowed to lie with impunity, they face no social or political, or forgive me, or professional consequences if they're caught lying.
So the preponderance of evidence would dictate that you believe the citizen unless the police officer can corroborate his account.
Mr. Eckert says he did not give permission.
I believe him.
That seems to me to be self-evident.
But on the basis of this, and this is a profoundly thin gruel of suspicion, there was an affidavit drawn up and a warrant issued to allow a search not only of the vehicle but of Mr. Eckert's person.
But that warrant was limited to Luna County and it was not enforced in Luna County because when they took him to a local emergency care facility, Dr. Ash, that's the way he's identified in the lawsuit, had the presence of mind and the character to say what you're requesting of me is illegal, it's unethical, I will not do it, you do not have the legal authority to compel this man to undergo an invasive procedure.
That's something you cannot do.
So the officers shrugged their shoulders and contacted Assistant DA Daugherty who suggested that they take him out of the jurisdiction to this clinic in Silver City where they found doctors of the sort who were compromised by the CIA in Gitmo, the same kind of people.
They claim to be doctors but they're not burdened by Hippocratic scruples in inflicting misery on people.
So they took him to this facility in Gila and he spent the next 14 hours undergoing this invasion of his person in supposed pursuit of narcotics evidence that most likely would not have been admissible if they had found something through this invasive procedure because the warrant expired at 10 o'clock that evening, none of the procedures apart from the abdominal x-ray were conducted before the end of the time period specified in the warrant, and this was conducted outside the jurisdiction where the warrant was issued.
And if you take a look at the warrant furthermore, it doesn't strike me as something that's compatible with the Fourth Amendment requirements that you specify what you're looking for and where you're likely to find it because they specified the car, the car was searched, there was no evidence in the car, they made reference to body cavities, the person of Mr. Eckert, but that of course doesn't mean that you can conduct invasive probes of his entire digestive system in hopes of finding something that supposedly would have been made obvious through a pat-down or a minimally evasive search of that kind as if such a thing could exist.
This whole exercise was unconstitutional, obviously.
More importantly, it was illegal in terms of any moral or ethical principle.
It's the sort of thing that's happened more than once in Deming.
There's a similar case that occurred with a man named Timothy Young.
I don't know that he had to go through the entire suite of procedures up to and including the colonoscopy, but he was stopped for a supposed moving violation.
When he turned to go, he was subjected to the Columbo tactic, oh, just one more question, and then you have the same group of people descend upon Mr. Young, including the same uncertified drug-sniffing dog, and he ended up undergoing rectal exams and other degrading and dehumanizing object-rape type abuse, supposedly to look for narcotics evidence that wasn't there.
One of the points I made in writing up this story is that Deming, New Mexico, is the headquarters of a Homeland Security Investigations Office and also a task force that was set up when this was declared a high-intensity drug-trafficking area about 10 or 12 years ago.
The border task force that two of these officers worked for is even more notoriously corrupt than pretty much every other task force of the sort in the country.
They're all terribly corrupt.
They're all engines of embezzlement and corruption.
The one in Deming is notorious because in 2007, a former ICE agent, that's Immigration and Customs Enforcement Department agent by the name of Christopher DeSantis, was fired after he blew the whistle on what would have to be described as embezzlement in the office there, the Border Narcotics Task Force office, was padding its statistics and embezzling funds.
They were, among other things, working with a local heroin smuggler who would bring heroin in from Mexico and then sell it on the streets in what were described as controlled by operations, but it just turns out they were protecting this guy while he was smuggling heroin and selling it on the streets and then paying him for multiple accounts, multiple federal accounts, in order to keep him on the payroll and keep him protected.
They were using this to pad their statistics and to build their budget.
They were taking the budget at the end of the fiscal year and blowing it on every personal benefit and perk you can imagine, including junkets to places like Las Vegas where a lot of these taxpayer funds ended up being stuffed down the G-string of strippers.
That's the sort of thing that was going on in Deming in 2007.
I didn't have a chance to write about this.
This is something I'm probably going to write about not too terribly long from now.
But there was a firearms dealership in Deming that in 2011 was raided by a SWAT team and they were set up by the same Homeland Security Investigations Office using a Mexican drug smuggler whose last name was Roman as a confidential informant.
They were trying to set up this family-owned firearms, federal firearms dealership, federally licensed firearms dealership, trying to set them up on charges that they were working through a straw purchaser to sell guns to Mexican drug cartels.
In other words, it was fast and furious type stuff.
They were doing nothing of the sort.
And after the case went to court, the federal prosecutors in the area obtained a motion from a compliance and federal judge to put everything under a seal so that discovery couldn't go forward and the public couldn't have access to the documents that would demonstrate that this whole thing was a completely phony operation.
You're familiar with Homeland Security theater-type operation, this time involving firearms rather than Muslim terrorism or narcotics.
They ended up with the family in question, the Reese family, ended up being convicted of making false statements on federal forms, which is a very easy thing to do.
Just go read Harvey Silverglate's book Three Felonies Today to show you how this works.
They may have made technically, factually inaccurate statements on disclosure forms, but there was nothing here that indicated that they were involved in illicit commerce or trying to cover up the same.
On the other hand, the local border narcotics task force is doing that kind of thing all the time as a matter of common operations.
They get $8 to $10 million a year from the taxpayers to do so, and it's that border narcotics task force that was working with at least two of the officers who've been involved now on at least two occasions in conducting traffic stops that end up in the sexual torture of perfectly innocent citizens there in New Mexico.
Amazing.
It's just amazing.
Well, but listen, Will, I mean, there's some collateral damage here in all of that, but to run our society any other way would send the wrong message to the children.
Exactly.
Unless the police have the supposed right and authority to conduct sexual rape of innocent people, societies we know will fall apart and grass will start growing through the cracks of our unintended streets and dogs and cats will be living together and we'll be seized by mass hysteria or some such apocalyptic nonsense.
One of the things I keep trying to explain to people is that everything that the state does is antisocial.
It undermines the rudimentary decencies that we owe each other as decent people, as reasonably civilized people, by authorizing certain people to inflict this kind of violence upon people who've done no harm to anybody.
And I'm hoping at some point we'll reach a saturation level with outrage here and that we will no longer countenance this type of behavior.
But unfortunately, until people feel the sting of it personally, it seems to be too abstract and too theoretical to get their attention.
And what's likely to happen here as a result of a lawsuit that's been filed on behalf of Mr. Eckert is that the people responsible will invoke the spurious principle of qualified immunity.
That's something that's in their reply.
They concede most of the facts.
Almost all the critical facts are conceded in the reply to the lawsuit by the city of Deming and the police officers involved.
But they invoke qualified immunity here, which is a simple way of saying that they have some type of plenary indulgence to do this type of thing because they're police officers.
And there'll be a settlement where the tax victims of Luna County and probably Hidalgo County will be required to indemnify the criminal actions of the officers involved.
That's what usually happens here.
And I'm hoping that somewhere maybe in the state of Idaho where I live or some other state here in the West, there's going to be a legislative revolt against the principle of qualified immunity.
That would start a really interesting fight with the police unions.
And I think a fight like that would be worthwhile.
And so you'll end up with a situation hopefully where somebody is going to say, listen, if we're going to allow police officers to carry out their function in society as it presently exists, and that's a horrible thing that I think needs to change, but if we're going to suffer their existence as a law enforcement body, they have to be individually, criminally, and civilly liable for their behavior the same way that any other citizen would be.
And where you have lawsuits that result in settlements or in civil awards, that money needs to be taken out of the pension funds of the local law enforcement body.
In other words, they've got skin in the game now.
And that would be a very useful thing to do.
I think it would be wonderful if 50 state legislatures next year, we had 50 fights with police unions over this issue, over the issue of qualified immunity and making police officers personally liable for both civil and criminal sanctions when they do this kind of thing.
Well, I forgot the wonderful way that you put it there, Will.
I can't even say that eloquently, but you were talking about people have to break from their sort of, I guess like the communists would say, the false consciousness about who these police officers are to us.
And it's sort of just kind of a simple cognitive dissonance, right, between the law and order heroes on TV who only are here because they love you so much and want to protect you so much.
And what you hear at least from time to time on the local news, which is they killed somebody else for apparently no reason.
And I was thinking of this the other day, or I'm sure you saw this, about the guy got in a fight with his son about wouldn't buy him a pack of cigarettes.
Yeah.
I guess the kid didn't have his ID and the government says, well, you know, you can't have cigarettes, can't buy cigarettes unless you look like you're 35 or older or else you gotta be carded.
Anyway, so the kid stole the dad's truck.
So the dad, and this is the dad's words, he's gonna teach his boy a lesson by calling the cops on him.
And, you know, in the dad's imagination, this is gonna be like an episode of some sitcom that he watches where the police officer is some caring guy and his son is gonna go to jail for the night and it's gonna be a very special episode of their life and whatever and everyone's gonna learn a nice lesson.
And then meanwhile the execution squad comes and kills his kid.
And then the grandfather, who probably fought in World War II or something, is standing there going, huh?
What do you mean you just killed my grandson for no reason?
You say he wouldn't turn the truck off.
Maybe he didn't hear you yelling because his truck was still on.
Did you think of that?
They just killed the kid.
And this happens, well, you know, all the time.
And, you know, I got my Facebook feed and every single day, Will, every single day, cops kill at least somebody in America that was unarmed at the time, was no threat at the time, got shot in the back at the time, whatever it was.
And those are only the ones that make the local news that make my Facebook feed.
And it's every single day.
But people still believe in policeman, the character, not their own real experience, which is, man, when you see these guys on the street, you're afraid of them, aren't you?
You should be.
You should be afraid of anybody who claims the right to initiate force and then to escalate force if you resist to the point where you're physically extinct, which is how police officers are trained.
They're indoctrinated in the belief that they are occupation soldiers confronting a 360-degree battlefront in which the most important consideration is force protection or officer safety.
Here in the state of Idaho, I think I might have mentioned this to you before, Scott, back in 2007, December of that year, the Post Academy in Meridian had a graduating class that adopted as its official graduation slogan, Don't suffer from PTSD, go out and cause some.
And when this became a matter of some public scandal here, there was the perfunctory apology, but nobody in a position of authority did what I would consider to be the minimum necessary in order to placate the genuine outrage here, which would be to require that this entire graduating class go through its entire curriculum again and have that curriculum revised in order to reflect the fact that what their motto had suggested was nothing more or less than a type of psychotic inclination toward violence, or they should have flunked them and banned them from being, from getting peace officer certification.
They still call themselves peace officers, and what they do, of course, has no colorable connection to the role of what a peace officer should actually do.
But the public here, unfortunately, is living in this immersive environment of infotainment in which you have not only constant indoctrination by mass entertainment, law and order, and its many imitators, for instance, but also so-called reality TV, where this character, as you describe him, of the police officer, is ubiquitous, and the actual damage, which is done by law enforcement is rarely, if ever, given any kind of widespread treatment.
I don't expect this story from New Mexico is going to be receiving anything like the type of coverage, the type of saturation coverage that other stories that would glamorize or valorize law enforcement intelligence would be given.
And the other thing that I think is important in this connection here with respect to the public perception of what police do is that most people don't understand that no police officer is morally or civilly, forgive me, morally certainly, but not civilly or legally required to come to the rescue of a citizen who's actually on the receiving end of aggressive violence.
They have no individual duty to care for a citizen in spite of the fact that that's how their services are advertised.
And at the same time, they have no enforceable criminal or civil liability should they injure or kill that citizen.
And so they're not required to help and they're not held accountable when they hurt.
And the other thing that we've talked about before with respect to the ubiquity of police violence against the innocent, to say, Scott, this sort of thing happens every single day in this country.
There are at least a handful of innocent people who were killed or otherwise horribly injured by police every single day for no legally defensible reason.
But we're told that police work, as it's described, is incomparably dangerous.
That it's an occupation in which these people live in constant peril all the time.
And every time a police officer is killed, of course, we have this grotesque spectacle of a Brezhnevite state funeral where the public at large is told that we need to prostrate ourselves in mourning because one of the heroic paladins of public order has sacrificed himself on behalf of the community.
But that is the sort of thing that happens with vanishing rarity.
It's an enormously overstated peril that police officers face.
It's not even in the top 10 or 12 most dangerous occupations as ranked by the federal bureaucracies in charge of making such calibrations, making such determinations.
If you're a commercial fisherman or a farmer, if you're a truck driver or a logger, if you're a test pilot, if you do something, in other words, that actually adds to the aggregate wealth and benefit, to the benefit of society at large, you're in a more dangerous occupation than law enforcement by several orders of magnitude.
Well, and it's all just part of the same lie that they're the only thing standing between us regular folk and all of society tearing itself apart like some zombie movie.
Exactly.
And we're just supposed to imagine that while we're sleeping at night, they're out there holding whichever hordes, I'm not sure which, at bay.
And yeah, oh, how dangerous.
It must be out in that part of town I never go to where you guys apparently spend all your time protecting me.
Yes.
The uniforms the guard can see, you know, each of us sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready to do violence on our behalf.
Those rough men stand ready to kill us in our beds.
There's something I wrote about a couple of weeks ago.
There's this really unfortunate but predictable trend toward police kicking in doors and shooting people in their beds.
These are the rough men who supposedly guard us while we sleep and I can't think of few thoughts that are likely to banish sleep from my eyes than the idea that there are people out there in government issued costumes with government issued license to invade my home and inflict violence upon me and my family.
People don't see it that way but I think that a larger and ever larger cohort of people within the public are starting to understand what's really happening here and we have our work cut out for us in terms of dispelling this decades long accumulation of ideological fog that obstructs the vision of so many people and more importantly impedes them from calling things by their proper names.
I was reading about this incident in Santa Rosa a couple of weeks ago where this young man Andy Lopez was killed by a deputy sheriff by the name of Eric Gellhaus in a matter of seconds because this 13 year old kid was carrying an airsoft rifle that the deputy thought looked like an actual AK-47.
Basically from teeth to tail this incident took about 10 seconds.
They called to report that they saw a suspicious guy who looked like he had a gun.
They pulled up behind him.
They whelped the horn once.
The deputy came out of the car with his gun trained on the back of this young man and yelled drop the gun.
The young man turned to hear who it was who was ordering him to drop the gun because Gellhaus did not identify himself as a police officer.
As he turned, Gellhaus loaded seven shots into the kid's back.
In the media descriptions I've read of this, particularly at execrable police propaganda sites like police1.com they've used words like altercation or fracas or fight to describe an ambush.
An ambush and a murder by a police officer.
Well I'm happy to say that I'm seeing more and more frequently now at least at some alternative media sites the use of words such as assault rather than arrest or abduction rather than arrest and referring to somebody as a victim rather than a suspect or a perpetrator and to refer to these encounters as something other than fights or altercations when the police are unilaterally inflicting violence on a helpless and usually outnumbered citizen.
So there's a bit I think of a revolution of awareness that's happening on the part of the public.
That's a very healthy thing.
You know what, I'm sorry because we're just completely out of time here Will but next time we should really talk about that legislative fight that we have to have as you say and what it is that people can do because I certainly agree with you that this is starting to get to regular people now that like wait a minute I thought you guys were on my side but I ain't so sure no more kind of a thing.
We have to run with that before more innocent people die.
That's all.
And that's it.
We're out.
Thanks very much Will.
Take care Scott.
Alright everybody.
That is the heroic William Norman Grigg.
Freedom in our time dot blogspot dot com.
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