11/06/13 – Adam Morrow – The Scott Horton Show

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All right, y'all, welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton.
This is my show, Scott Horton Show.
First guest up today is our friend Adam Morrow.
He writes for Interpress Service.
That's IPSnews.net out of Cairo, Egypt.
Welcome back to the show, Adam.
How are you doing?
Good.
Good, Scott.
Thanks.
Glad to be back.
Good times.
Very happy to have you back on the show.
So, I guess, start where you want.
Give us an update on America and Saudi Arabia's counter-revolution in Egypt.
Oh, well, it's not going so well for the counter-revolution these days, actually.
The reaction, the popular reaction that they've seen, that we've seen in Egypt to the military ouster of the elected president that's almost four months ago now, is much greater than they ever anticipated.
You have these demonstrations that are continuing every day, especially on Fridays, that are drawing tens of thousands of people out on the street.
The thing is, it's impossible to gauge exactly how massive these demonstrations are, because they're hardly receiving any media coverage.
The Egyptian media, the private media, and the state-run media are studiously avoiding showing any kind of pro-Morsi activity.
So, it's difficult to gauge how big they are.
Gazeta, remarkably, the Qatar-based satellite station, is the only channel that's really devoting a lot of time to them.
And from what you can tell from Gazeta, I mean, they look, they appear to be pretty big, especially on Fridays.
They appear to be massive.
And they're not subsiding.
I mean, a lot of people were saying, you know, that all of this would sort of fade after one month, but if anything, the momentum seems to be growing.
You know, the opposition to Egypt's new military-backed rulers seems to be growing every day.
So, they seem to be sort of in a state of confusion.
And now, so, as far as the military, Junta's promise that they're going to hold elections, and that they don't, I guess, see, see, he doesn't want to be the permanent new Mubarak, or is he still saying that?
Does he want the power for himself, or what do you think is going to happen there?
This issue of his presidential ambitions has sort of received a lot of attention.
There's, you know, there are leaks that are coming out that suggest that he does have presidential ambitions, and then he's also gone on record as saying that he doesn't have presidential ambitions.
However, the idea, according to this roadmap, according to this political roadmap that the army imposed immediately after Morsi's ouster, it sort of stipulated in very vague terms that parliamentary and presidential elections should be held.
I don't think it even, I don't think it even specified a time frame.
So, this idea of, what I think is going to happen is they're basically, they're not going to hold elections, they're going to, they're going to, they have this perpetual excuse that they're fighting a war on terror, because this is how, yeah, this is what they're doing.
This is, you know, they're basically trying to portray the demonstrations.
Well, basically, you have two different things going on on parallel tracks since Morsi's ouster.
You've had demonstrations that have been, for the most part, have been peaceful, by and large have been peaceful demonstrations all over the country, in Cairo and Alexandria, as well as a lot of the, most, most of the other provinces.
And those have been going on, like I said, on a daily basis, and they tend to peak on Fridays or on other important occasions, like they were, it looked like there were going to be massive, massive demonstrations, what, the day before yesterday, when Morsi's brief, his brief court appearance.
And I think one of the reasons why they quickly adjourned the trial proceedings until January was because huge numbers of people were starting to hit the streets.
So, you've had these daily mass demonstrations that are continuing and just gathering momentum on one hand, and then you've also had violent acts.
You've definitely had acts of violence.
But the perpetrators of those acts of violence remains unknown.
And most of those acts, like 90% of that stuff, has taken place in Sinai, in northern, the northern Sinai Peninsula, where it's very difficult to tell exactly what's going on, you know, because news is so slanted, and it's so difficult to get, you know, it's so difficult to get reliable information at this point.
So, it's very difficult to tell even who's carrying out these attacks.
But you do have it, these attacks have been happening, occurring on an almost daily basis.
They've kind of slowed down in the last week or two.
But you've had some quite spectacular attacks, like they've hit big military intelligence headquarters in South Sinai just maybe two weeks ago.
So, you have these two things sort of going on simultaneously.
You've got these nonstop peaceful protests going on, and then you've got attacks by either, you know, by either hardcore Islamist supporters of the, you know, opponents of the military coup, or it's some kind of false flag activity, which the government is orchestrating so it can then paint Islamists as terrorists and then hit them back.
Or it's a combination of both of those things.
Again, it's very difficult to tell exactly what's going on.
All right, now, so to backpedal a little bit here to the support for the Brotherhood and the people out there protesting, if we can go back to 2011, I think the way you explained it then was the Muslim Brotherhood wasn't necessarily the people's choice, but they certainly had a big leg up on being an organized group outside of the state.
They were illegal but tolerated, basically, under Mubarak.
And so...
Just very quickly, Scott, they were the only viable opposition force for all those decades.
I mean, they really were the only real, genuine opposition, by which I mean they hadn't been co-opted by the state.
You did have a bunch of other so-called opposition parties.
But these were all in bed with the state.
These were there.
These were allowed to exist only in order to give this impression of a multi-party system.
They were only there to legitimize the ruling NDP, which, at the end of the day, always controlled everything.
And by the way, up until the Arab Spring broke out, that was fooling nobody, right?
Nobody believed that Egypt had anything like a democracy.
It was a one-man dictatorship.
It was a fiction that sort of everybody politely believed.
Yeah, absolutely.
Maybe Hillary would claim that, but no one on Earth took that seriously.
But the point I'm trying to get to, I guess, is when we're looking at all the people protesting now, I would guess that this is a symptom or a result of the way I believe you explained it to me back then.
It wasn't just that they had no one else to turn to but the Brotherhood for a center of power outside of power, but that at least, I don't know, super majority, but at least a good majority of the people of Egypt actually supported the Brotherhood.
Not just because they were the only alternative, but because that was, in fact, what they wanted.
I think part of the spin here is that they took advantage of their superior organization to basically hijack the revolution from the people who revolted.
To hear John Kerry tell it before, and I guess again this week, all the military was doing was saving the revolution from these backwards kooks who were lucky enough to be organized enough at the time to do so, but weren't really representing in any way the will of the people of Egypt.
Right.
First of all, though, I'd just like to point out, how much of a kook can you be if you're really organized?
I mean, those two things kind of contradict one another.
Well, I don't know.
You've got a highly organized group.
If they took power in America, we might say, well, they sure are organized and they sure are not so.
That's true.
Okay, touche.
However, I'd like to point out, though, a lot of people sort of, you know, a lot of attention has been placed on the presidential elections and Morsi in his one year and on the presidency, and as you know, he won by a slim margin.
He beat Ahmed Shafi, who was Mubarak's last prime minister.
He beat him by an extremely slim margin of something like 52% to 48% or something like that, and a lot of people will point to that and say, oh, this was just a fluke, you know.
He just won because nobody else wanted Shafi and all of this stuff.
I think it's instructive to also bear in mind the parliamentary elections, which happened at the end of 2011 and very early 2012, when you had, I think that is a better gauge of sort of, you know, the popular will.
To use an expression that's being bandied around like crazy here by both sides, constant references to the popular will, constant attempts to speak for the Egyptian popular will.
But in those parliamentary elections, you had 75% of parliamentary seats went to Islamists, you know, and that was a free election.
That was a perfectly free election that was monitored by international supervisors and all of this sort of thing, and the Islamists picked up 75% of the seats.
Now, that wasn't all the Brotherhood.
The Brotherhood picked up, I think, a little bit more than half, a little bit above 50%, and then other allied Islamist parties got another 25% or so.
So, I mean, like you just said, I mean, you've got a situation now where this new military government is basically trying, they're not only trying to get rid of the Brotherhood, but they want to completely erase or delete political Islam from the, you know, from Egyptian political life.
They want to completely erase it from Egyptian political life.
And you're talking about a current, you're talking about a political current or an ideology or however you want to describe it, that took 75% of parliament in the last free election.
So you see what kind of sort of impossible situation they're in right now.
Yeah, well, and, you know, of course, the impossible situations are spread around pretty evenly too, right?
Because all of the socialists and unionists and April 5th types who came out and helped the military with the PR stunt that they needed with the big protests, the not as big protests, but the renewed protests at the beginning of the summer, who helped the military to overthrow Morsi.
Now, what do they have to gain from?
Oh, they've all been completely screwed, Scott.
It's incredible.
You know, April 6th people are being rounded up and, you know, interrogated and stuff like this.
What we're seeing now is because this was a counter-revolution, you know, they try to, you know, they try to tout it as a revolution, as a popular revolution and all this stuff.
But it was a counter-revolution, pure and simple.
And you can see how they're trying to even change the history of the 25th January revolution.
They're trying to turn that into something that was maybe directed by foreign, you know, that had foreign hands behind it and that sort of thing.
And that the June 30th revolution is actually the real sort of expression of the Egyptian popular will, which is incredible.
I mean, they're literally trying to, they've stolen, you know, the revolutionary rhetoric and that sort of stuff.
And they're literally trying to basically turn January 25th on its head and make it look like January 25th was some kind of abortion.
That the June 30th revolution has somehow corrected.
You know, it's really, it's remarkable.
And the way the media has gone into overdrive to push this, to push this stuff on everybody.
Although that being said, a lot of people have wised up to the media.
You talk to most people now on the street and stuff like that.
And even pro-army people will say a lot to me, the media is completely out of control.
And I'll tell you what, I mean, anybody could have said, Hey, liberals, maybe you don't like the Muslim brotherhood, but you really want to support the military and canceling the election and maybe having another one sometime again in the future if they feel like it.
I mean, you basically, you basically got rid of a, of a president that, okay, you didn't like, but a one fair and square, you know, what was elected fair and square, even if you don't like and B can be, can be voted out, can be voted out of office if he sucks.
You know, you traded that for a fascist leadership that can't be voted out.
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, and the brotherhood must've, you know, not done the best job at relations with the, the Cairo left there or whatever, but I don't know.
Sure.
Sure.
I'm going to, I'm going to say both sides are culpable though, at the very least.
I mean, both sides are culpable.
I mean, the behavior that I saw from the left and all of those people has shown me as, I mean, they were the ones out in the street saying, yeah, cancel the election.
So it's all on them.
Really?
They didn't enter.
They didn't enter the whole democratic at the risk of sounding corny.
They didn't enter the whole democratic experiment, you know, in good faith.
That's how I felt.
They didn't go into it in the spirit of, you know, people sort of working together to get the country back up on its feet.
It was immediately, it was, you know, immediately go on the offensive, do everything you can to weaken, you know, the, the, the guy who happens to be in power right now, you know?
And I think they paid, they've paid, they've paid dearly.
The whole, whole country has paid dearly for the choice that they made for that decision.
That's the short-sightedness of that move.
The cops, or at least the leadership of the cops at church got up there on the stage with the coup leaders and all that last summer.
Oh, definitely.
Sort of the head of Al-Azhar, that was the, that, those, those two guys basically gave the coup with the religious cover that it needed.
You had the, you had the, the Coptic Orthodox Pope, and you had the head of Egypt's Al-Azhar, you know, Egypt's Al-Azhar institution, which is a big, big Islamic learning institution here.
That's well known throughout the, throughout the Islamic world.
So you had those two, you had the Christian and the Muslim leaders sort of coming out and giving their blessing to the coup.
And I'll tell you, there have been massive demonstrations going on in Al-Azhar.
I think, I think the, I don't know if you know much about Al-Azhar, but that it does play quite a prominent role in Egyptian politics.
No, I don't know.
You're saying that's a university?
It's a university, but it's bigger than just a university.
It's like, it's like this learning institution that's been around for centuries, I don't know, several centuries.
And over the last, since Nasser's time has been deeply co-opted by the state to the point where Mubarak was, was appointing the heads of, the heads of Al-Azhar.
And even the guy who's still, who's still head of Al-Azhar, the guy who was there blessing the coup along with the Pope was a Mubarak appointee.
So this is one of the things I could never understand after January 25th, how you could still have so many.
It would be like two years after January 25th.
And I remember thinking, why are these Mubarak appointees still around the head of Al-Azhar?
And the, the, that prosecutor general that was so troublesome, you know, if you remember, was a, was a Mubarak appointee as well.
Like Obama keeping gates.
You can't, you can't even change administrations too quickly without it blowing up in your face, I guess.
Right, right.
And what I've heard is after, after the July 3rd coup, I heard like just people from, anecdotally from people, you know, from people who knew people that, um, that a lot of the guys who had sort of been on, you know, voluntary vacation for the last two years, a lot of the Mubarak, you know, state apparatus people were like, went right back into business.
Like, you know, without missing a beat, you know, you had a lot of these, you know, Mubarak era officials and stuff like that, like going right back to work.
You know what I'm saying?
It was like the deep state was like on vacation for those two years until it, you know, managed to get rid of Morsi.
And then they just, they just, you know, went right back into business.
Uh, interestingly enough, I know we rag on the New York times a lot, but they've been, their coverage of Egypt has been really, really good.
People should have a look at some of that.
They've, they've done some really good stories on, uh, on the, on Egypt post, uh, post coup.
Well, I think it's interesting, as you noted earlier, that all sides really are blaming America for this, right?
The, the dictatorship's conspiracy theory is that the CIA is behind the Muslim brotherhood.
And of course the Muslim brotherhood's conspiracy theory is that America is behind the military dictatorship.
I'm leaning toward the brotherhood's conspiracy theory, by the way.
Yeah, me too.
But, uh, it's, but it's interesting that overall uncle Sam is the perfect bad guy, the great Satan to what used to be our most loyal and stable ally in the Middle East there.
Right.
Well, what's so hypocritical, what's so hypocritical of the, of the coup people is that, I mean, you know, which are basically the Mubarak people is that the, you know, the Mubarak regime was, uh, was suckled on, on, on, you know, U S largesse for, for, you know, American largesse for so long, you know, and then to turn around when it's politically convenient and play the anti-American card just to, you know, just to sort of get street cred or whatever.
It's just very, very disingenuous and very hypocritical.
Well, now, so what's John Kerry doing in town?
It seemed like he's trying to smooth things over with the Saudis.
And I'm thinking, telling the Egyptians that, Hey, we're in it with the Saudis with you, that, that was what he was.
That was the mission to try to get everybody.
Yeah.
That seemed to be what he was.
He was very, um, he was very, uh, conciliatory when he was in Cairo.
I didn't really have a chance to follow everything he said when he was in Saudi.
Uh, but, uh, but I know when he was in Egypt, he was surprisingly conciliatory and said good, you know, said that Egypt was on the right track and, you know, this sort of stuff, which shouldn't really come as a surprise.
Which is just amazing that they can go on TV and say that, no, this wasn't a coup simply because as everybody knew is completely, uh, understood by all that the only reason they won't call it a coup is because the law says that if you do call it a coup, then you can't sell them as much weapons anymore.
And that was the only reason.
And the fact that, and then, you know, for Kerry to say, uh, that the, the coup was just the restoration of democracy and for him to now come out and say, yeah, everything is on track.
I mean, yeah, if this is the British empire, I guess.
Right.
Yeah, no, it's pretty shocking.
Uh, I know there was a, there was a congressman though.
I, I, I just caught a little bit of this.
This was like a couple of days ago.
I don't know if you know anything about it.
A congressman came out swinging pretty hard, uh, against the, against the coup in Egypt though.
And saying, uh, basically saying American, uh, us policy towards what had happened in Egypt was really shameful and stuff like that.
I don't know if you know anything about that.
I think Virginia or something like that.
Okay.
But I know it is still a source of debate.
I mean, I know it's still a source of debate inside the U S you know, this is another thing is that this, this whole Egypt situation, because again, because then I know this is something I keep harping on, but because Egypt is so big and so important, so geo strategically important, what's happening in here really is having go either having or going to have, uh, uh, repercussions in other countries and stuff like that is definitely going to be felt in other countries.
I know, I know a lot of people in the Gulf.
I heard at least that a lot of people in the Gulf were very, very upset with their, um, with their respective governments, especially Saudi for, uh, for coming out in support of the coup.
And even, even I think in the wake of the, uh, Rob, Rob, I allowed the way a massacre, which happened on August 4th, 14th, which was when several hundred pro-Morsi demonstrators got gunned down at that state.
When a fit in was dispersed in Cairo.
If you remember that the Gulf countries actually came out and reiterated their support for the, uh, for the coup, which was, which was pretty shocking, you know, basically condoning the murder of these, like, you know, hundreds of, of, of peaceful protesters, pretty shocking stuff.
So I think that pissed off a lot of the people inside of Saudi Arabia.
That's what I heard.
I mean, it's, you know, it's, it's created a, you know, it's, it's sort of opened new rifts, you know, where it's exposed a lot of people, you know, this is one of the things a lot of people are saying that this as bad as everything that's happened has been, it's at least it's taken the masks off of a lot of people.
A lot of people who had called themselves liberals and who would touted themselves as liberals in the past like that have been shown up as nothing more than fascists.
Now, at this point, you know, when push comes to shove, we'll, we'll openly, you know, support a bloody coup against a democratically elected president and stuff like that.
People who used to, who were calling them liberals, calling themselves liberals and Democrats until, until, you know, recently, what was Saudi influence like in Egypt before the coup of the last summer?
Or in fact, what was it like under Mubarak?
What was Saudi influence like?
I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't felt.
I mean, I know with Saudi was very pro-Mubarak.
I think they flirted with the brotherhood as a, as a fellow, you know, just, you know, just to maybe to sort of, you know, just for their, for their own Islamist credentials, they might've had to play some, you know, pay some lip service to the, to the, to the Muslim brotherhood.
But when push came to shove, when Mubarak was ousted, Saudi immediately, I mean, Saudi's displeasure became, was, was very, very well.
I mean, I heard that, you know, Egyptians and Saudi were suddenly being treated like garbage and stuff like that right after the January 25th revolution.
I mean, Saudi was absolutely furious and Saudi was trying desperately to get Mubarak out of jail.
I know that was one of the fact that it seemed like every day that he was in jail, they, they, they bothered them, you know, like they wanted him out absolutely as soon as possible.
And I, and I wonder, I wonder if, if the, if the money that they granted might've had something to do with, with getting Mubarak out of jail.
They, you know, they, cause Saudi and Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates have together pledged something like 13 or $14 billion to Egypt.
Which had a lot to do with America too, because I think when Obama was under pressure, under some pressure to somewhat curtail weapons, right?
No F-16s, but we'll give you some howitzers or whatever the compromise was that the Saudi answer was, don't worry about the Americans.
We'll cover the loss.
So that's, that's all, that's not just covering the loss.
That's also filling up the power vacuum and kicking us out a little bit.
And, but, you know, I want to ask you too, going back to 2011, think of how powerful Al Jazeera was in promoting the original Arab spring uprising in Egypt.
And, you know, I read a bit and I'm sorry, I don't know nearly enough about this to even question you well.
But I wonder if you know about the split or at least former split between the Qataris and the Saudis on the brotherhood.
Cause it seems like same story with Egypt.
We hear that the Qataris are back in the brotherhood and the Saudis are back in the Al Nusra guys in Syria, that kind of thing.
And then in this case, it seemed like the Qataris were on the side of the brotherhood and the revolution back in 2011.
But then I read something that said that the father has been kicked upstairs and the son is now ruling Qatar and he's much closer to the Saudi position and is willing to forsake the Muslim brotherhood to support Sisi in Egypt and the Nusra guys in Syria.
Look, I've heard similar stuff.
I'm not an expert on Qatar at all, but I have heard similar stuff.
I think it's extremely significant that, uh, that, uh, the crown prince became the Amir, they got a new Amir, a new prince, a new king, days before the, uh, before the coup in Egypt.
I mean, the timing was incredible.
It was like literally three or four days before the coup, uh, maybe one or two days before those decisive June 30th protests that culminated in Morsi's ouster.
All of a sudden Qatar had this incredible leadership change.
Uh, I don't know what that means, but I don't, I think there, there, there is some kind of relation.
I've also heard that there is some kind of major rift inside the royal family itself over the issue of Egypt and the Muslim brotherhood.
Um, I've also heard that, Adam, that, um, that Al Jazeera are the only ones covering the brotherhood protests at this point.
Yeah.
Well, this is what I was going to say.
I have not noticed any discernible, and this is really the only thing I have to base it on, but I haven't noticed any discernible change in gazeera coverage.
You know what I'm saying?
Like they haven't got the, if anything, if anything, they're like turning up the heat on Egypt.
I mean, it's, it's like a war between Gazir and Egypt right now, because I mean, they have two of their guys were arrested and I think they're still, yeah, they're still in Egyptian, uh, in, in Egyptian custody, you know, a couple of cameramen and a reporter or something like that.
Um, and, uh, and, and they, uh, they closed their offices in Egypt a while back and I think they picked all of them out of the country, but they're still managing to do.
And I'm talking right now about their live, it's called gazeera Mubasher in Arabic.
And it's their, it's their live Egypt channel.
It's devoted entirely to Egypt and it's like 24, seven constant news.
So it's quite a good station.
I mean, if you're following Egypt news, it's really good for, you know, for breaking developments and that sort of thing.
Every, you know, people here, pro military people here hate it and say that it's pro brotherhood, which it is in a sense, but at the same time, it's also quite reliable.
Um, but what they did is, uh, basically the military authorities here are jamming their signals constantly.
So you can only get some of the, you can only get them on some, you know, channels, but another channel, they'll be scrambled all the time.
And gazeera actually like two or three weeks ago actually did this incredible report where they showed exactly, they showed exactly where the Egyptian military were jamming their signals from, like literally showed them, but like brought Google maps and showed the exact locations of, uh, of these military, uh, uh, transmitter, you know, transmission, you know, uh, uh, areas that were actually responsible for, for scrambling gazeera signals, which was, which was, I thought it was just incredible, you know, like really, really, uh, showing up the, uh, the military.
And then like two weeks later, there was an actual attack.
There was some kind of RPG attack.
It was like the first, first attack of its kind in Southern Cairo in the Madi district.
Uh, and, uh, and somebody actually fired an RPG through one of these big satellite transmitters.
So it's like, I mean, the whole media aspect is a big part of what's going on.
This whole media war is a big thing.
Cause you have a lot of Bayer, which is a big Saudi channel, which is based in Dubai.
Hey, I'm sorry, but can you talk for about 25 seconds about Morsi on trial and what that means what he's charged with?
Uh, sure.
Morsi is charged with, I mean, what can only be called trumped up charges.
I mean, he's, he's, he's being charged with inciting the murder of protesters during some demonstrations last year, uh, in which, uh, 10, 10 or in which 11 people were killed and eight of the people that were killed in those demonstrations were brotherhood people.
So he, and yet he's being charged with inciting the murder of these, of these demonstrators.
So that's like completely nonsensical.
And he's also being charged with conspiring with Hamas, which also is ridiculous considering that he was a president at the time and he's allowed to talk to foreign powers.
So, uh, so the, and the, uh, trial proceedings have been delayed until until January 8th.
So they'll resume.
Thanks very much, Adam, Adam, everybody.
Ipsnews.net.
Appreciate it.
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