09/16/13 – Jesse Trentadue – The Scott Horton Show

Hey, Al Scott Horton here to talk to you about this great new book by Michael Swanson, The War State, The Cold War Origins of the Military-Industrial Complex and the Power Elite.
In the book, Swanson explains what the revolution was, the rise of empire, and the permanent military economy, and all from a free market libertarian perspective.
Jacob Hornberger, founder and president of the Future Freedom Foundation, says the book is absolutely awesome, and that Swanson's perspectives on the Cold War and the Cuban Missile Crisis are among the best I've read.
The poll numbers say if the people agree on one thing, it's that America is on the wrong track.
In The War State, Swanson gets to the bottom of what's ailing our society.
Empire, the permanent national security bureaucracy that runs it, and the mountain of debt that has enabled our descent down this dark road.
The War State could well be the book that finally brings this reality to the level of mainstream consensus.
America can be saved from its government and its arms dealers.
First, get the facts.
Get The War State by Michael Swanson, available at your local bookseller and at Amazon.com.
Or just click on the book in the right margin at ScottHorton.org.
All right, so I got Jesse Trinidou on the line.
Welcome back to the show, Jesse.
How are you doing?
Thank you, Scott.
It's nice to be back.
Great interview here.
Oklahoma City bombing.
Missing videos?
Description here.
I'm giving out keywords for the audience to search in their search engine.
Federal judge orders trial against FBI.
So fill us in.
What's going on here?
Well, I've been in a fight with the FBI, as you know, for almost 20 years now.
And this particular fight has been ongoing almost five.
And it concerns the surveillance camera videotapes from the Murrow Building in Oklahoma City.
Government records show that they have a tape taken from the Murrow Building, which was destroyed, surveillance cameras, that show the people who delivered the bomb that morning on April 19, 1995, and the detonation of the bomb.
And the records say that the bomb detonated three minutes and six seconds after the suspects exited the vehicle.
Now, suspects is important because the FBI claimed that there were only three people involved, Michael Fortier, Terry Nichols, and Tim McVeigh, and that they caught and punished all three.
And they also claim that Tim McVeigh was alone that morning when he drove the Ryder truck with the bomb to the Murrow Building.
He obviously, by their own records, was not alone.
There was somebody else in that truck with him.
I suspect that that person was an FBI informant, and that's why no one's ever seen that videotape.
You would have thought, and I think your audience would agree, that that would have been exhibit number one in the McVeigh murder trial, the videotape.
It would have shown him doing it and who accompanied him.
That would have been the only evidence you would have needed, basically.
And yet, no one's seen that tape.
It wasn't given to the defense counsel in the McVeigh trial, and it was never presented as evidence at that trial.
Instead, the FBI spends years and who knows how many tens of millions of dollars doing the investigation to prosecute Tim McVeigh when they had the proof beyond any doubt, evidence in their own hands, and didn't use it.
Right.
Now, when you say nobody, that's not quite right because it's too long to play here, and I don't have it queued up to the very best part or anything like that, so I won't play it.
But I have an almost seven-minute-long clip from NBC affiliate Channel 4 News.
Jaina Davis, who I think bought into the whole Iraqis did it because that's what Judith Miller and Laurie Milroy believe nonsense.
But anyway, she did get this scoop, and I believe shared this scoop with the Los Angeles Times, correct?
And they sat and watched the video, and they did a computerized recreation of what it shows and from what angle, and again shows John Doe 2 with Timothy McVeigh, and apparently in their interpretation, he's the one that sets off the bomb.
I had not known that anyone had ever seen it.
Was that someone actually saw the tape, or was it a recreation of witnesses?
I thought that the – well, maybe I'm misinterpreting it.
I had thought that a producer from NBC and – from the NBC affiliate there and the L.A. Times reporter had themselves seen the video.
No?
You're telling me they had just talked to the government – to government sources?
Or witnesses.
It's my understanding.
I could be wrong, but to my knowledge, they – no one's ever seen that tape but the FBI.
And the fight here is to get the tape, and for five years, they've not denied the tape existed.
They've just told the court that they can't find it, that they've been ordered to do repeated searches, and they keep coming back to the court and saying, trust me, judge.
Trust us, judge.
We looked real, real hard, and we just can't find that damn tape.
And so now his order is that your trial can proceed, but they're just going to keep saying the same thing, right?
Or else what else is your lawsuit going to achieve here?
I think the purpose of the trial – and the judge will tell me on November 21st when there's a hearing to define in more detail the scope of the trial.
But I think the trial is to be whether or not I get to go look for the tape.
Oh, whether you get to go look for the tape.
Yes.
Yeah.
See, that's what I want.
So, wow, now would that be unprecedented, or I guess that's – how does that work?
They're going to – that's actually possible that they would turn you loose inside their warehouse and search through their evidence lockers or whatever like McNulty did in the Waco video?
I think that's a very good possibility.
Wow.
Man, I'm so grateful that you are so determined and have stuck with this, as you say, for 20 years now, working to get to the bottom of this thing.
Do you have – I thought there was a number, but do you have an estimate of how many different videos captured the bombing that morning or at least the moments before it, something like that?
Because, of course, as you mentioned, they never used this at the trial.
All they ever showed at the trial was a still shot from a camera down the street that was on the same side as the Murrah building that just – apparently they say the truck stopped, I don't know, for a red light or what, stopped for a minute outside.
So they sort of kind of placed a Ryder truck at the scene of the crime that way at the trial.
But I remember hearing double digits in terms of numbers of cameras rolling that morning outside on those street corners.
There's one more tape I didn't get, and it's the tape from – or at least one more I didn't get from the Regency Tower apartment building facing the Murrah building.
That camera would have shown everything.
That tape I have not received either.
Is it true that everyone who saw Timothy McVeigh that morning, which, again, is in – I think at least dozens of people, a dozen or two, that they all saw him with somebody else?
Nobody said, yeah, I saw him, but he was by himself, right?
Everyone that saw him saw him with at least one other person.
And now in the new book by Roger Charles, Oklahoma City, he talks about – and he's got some great sources there talking about the fight inside the FBI and the Justice Department.
There actually were some people who wanted to get to the bottom of the bombing and tell the truth about it and prosecute everybody responsible for it, and there were others who took the position, no, let's not do that.
Let's prosecute McVeigh and Nichols, and let's use the third guy – what's his name from Arizona – against them, and that'll be it.
That was true, and the reason was they knew that if they tried to expand the prosecution, that trail would lead right back to them.
Well, explain what you mean by that.
I think you're well aware now that it's undisputed that they knew it was going to happen, they being the FBI, and they didn't stop it.
And you have to ask yourself, why didn't they stop it?
Did they screw up, or did they want it to happen?
I don't know the answer to that question, but I do know they knew, and they didn't stop it.
And either way, it would have caused some serious problems for the Department of Justice and the FBI if the American people had known that they had screwed up and let 168 people be murdered on the morning of April 19, 1995.
That's something they would not have been able to survive.
Well, just like in the case of September 11, they might as well have done it on purpose to the degree, if you look at the way that they exploited it, as though it was a gigantic birthday present to them.
Now they can get whatever laws passed they want, they can harass whoever they want.
It's a lot of the same things they initially got after Oklahoma City.
That was the start of the mindset towards the Patriot Act and the loss of so many of our rights.
Yeah, I mean that Counterterrorism Act of 1996 had all kinds of proto-Patriot Act snooping powers in it.
There was a little bit of pushback about it then, but a lot of it got passed, too.
If you've got a minute, it's a related subject to the one you were just talking about with the person before I came on.
The current status in your comments about snooping powers is, in part of my fight with the FBI, I've stumbled across a program that started, ironically, about the same time as the Oklahoma City bombing.
It's called their Sensitive Informant Program.
I have a FOIA lawsuit here in federal court in Utah to get the manual they use.
But the Sensitive Informant Program is a program where they recruit and place informants on the staffs of federal judges, on defense teams in high-profile criminal cases, in other federal agencies, in the White House, in the clergy, and even at the management level of the mainstream media.
And I couldn't believe that they admitted they do this.
And when I asked for the manual, they even said they have a manual on how to do it.
And when I asked for it, they said I couldn't have it because it involved national security.
Now, I could see how conceivably placing an informant on the staff of a federal judge could involve an issue of national security.
I mean, if you suspected the judge of being a foreign operative or something.
But if you've been doing this for almost 20 years and you have informants on the staffs of hundreds, perhaps, of federal judges, and perhaps even the Supreme Court, that's not national security.
That's spying.
If you've got informants in the White House, that's not national security.
That's spying.
And if you've got informants on defense teams, and I have a document that shows they had an informant on the defense team in the McVeigh case, at least associated with the defense team, there's no way you can justify that on national security.
That's unconstitutional as hell, as would be placing informants in any of these positions.
Right.
It's like – Nobody's talked about this.
I would have thought the mainstream media would have been all over this, given the timing with the spying that's going on with NSA and everything else.
They would have been all over this story, but no one will touch it.
Yeah.
Well, maybe it just needs the right place to get its start, and separate from the Oklahoma City thing.
You know what I mean?
Because maybe people don't want to get into that and have to go back in time and learn about a bunch of old stuff.
But if you can give them this, I don't know, maybe send it to Greenwald.
He's certainly got an audience.
I don't know.
He might be busy right now.
Anyway, yeah, no, I mean, that's extremely important.
Really, the way you describe it, it sounds like a de facto counterintelligence program, like COINTELPRO against the Black Panthers and the Klan, only against state governments and the judiciary, against the rule of law, against federalism, you know, the last remnants of it.
Yeah, well, and they even put informants in other federal agencies.
So it's not just listening to the state.
I mean, they've blanketed state and federal government with a sensitive informant program.
Yeah, I remember, you know, here in Texas, David Dewhurst, I forget now, is he still the lieutenant governor?
He was, and he's a former CIA officer, and that wasn't even a secret.
But I guess Jesse Ventura, back when he was the governor of Minnesota, said that there were CIA guys in the state, like, you know, undercover, had infiltrated the state government, the legislature.
I wouldn't doubt that for a moment.
Yeah, well, I don't know why any of this should surprise anybody at this point, especially when you consider who's the attorney general right now.
So, jeez, what do you know about this Eric Holder guy?
What's he got to do with your case?
Well, he was the one, as deputy attorney general in the Reno Justice Department, who was assigned to prevent any investigation into my brother's murder.
He dubbed it the Trinidu Mission, and it was his job, he was the head of it, to head off any kind of investigation into my brother's death.
And now I know the obvious reason was that it would have taken any investigator right back to the Oklahoma City bombing.
And that was one place that the Reno Justice Department and the Clinton administration did not want to go.
Now, you had gotten the extremely powerful Republican senator from Utah, Orrin Hatch, interested in this case, and he had said on the record, I believe on Fox News, that, yeah, we're going to look into this, the case of the murder of Kenneth Trinidu.
And then all of a sudden, uh-uh.
And now, was that because of Eric Holder's mission?
Yes, Mr. Holder paid Senator Hatch a visit, and that's when he went away.
Amazing.
And, you know, that ought to tell you something right there.
Not just the story of what happened to Kenny, but just the Oklahoma bombing itself, that Congress never held a single hearing on it.
No, if a dog were to urinate on a gate to the White House, they'd have a hearing.
And they had not touched the Oklahoma City bombing.
In fact, Congressman Rohrabacher, who was my brother's congressman, tried, tried desperately to look into it, and they shut him down.
Yeah, and he was even really off on these rabbit trails, too, I think, about Terry Nicholson.
Some of them, but he was also getting close.
Some of them he was hitting off and close to home because he was going after the Aryan Republican Army.
Oh, he was?
Okay, well, I guess I had missed that.
I thought he was just doing, you know, the AEI version of...
No, he was looking down both.
He was following both trails.
Yeah.
And the one that seemed to make him nervous was the Aryan Republican Army in Elohim City.
That's where they did not want him to go.
And so when he'd issue subpoenas for records, they would just tell him to go pound sand.
And Elohim City, and the problem there, again, was crawling with cops, undercover cops?
I think they were all over the place in Elohim City.
We know for sure that Carol Howell was there and reported to the government that four months before it happened that they were going to bomb a federal building in Oklahoma City.
Everyone paid attention to it.
I remember in Ambrose Evans Pritchard's book, The Writer for the Telegraph, he talks about a meeting, well, it was J.D. Cash's journalism, and J.D. Cash was sharing everything with Pritchard, basically.
And they talked about a meeting that was held, I believe, on a small private airplane between the ATF and the FBI, and the FBI in this case would have been Bob Ricks, who people might remember was the spokesman for the FBI during the Waco massacre, head of the Tulsa office at the time.
And that was when the FBI had just found out about the ATF's undercover investigation, Carol Howell, et cetera, and the ATF's plan to go and raid Elohim City, or at least them thinking about it.
And the FBI said, no, you're off the mission, and kind of pulled agency rank and said, no, we're on the case, not you, and you'll leave Elohim City alone.
We'll handle it, et cetera, like that.
You know about that?
Can you verify that in your documents that you've gotten?
I don't know about that, but I think Roger Charles may have written something about that in his book, too.
I'm trying to remember.
I've heard that story, but I don't have any firsthand knowledge of it.
And I'm almost certain that it either came from J.D. or Roger, and or Roger.
Can you give us a short summary of the different victories that you've had so far?
They did have to settle with you about Kenny, right?
Eventually they paid the judgment.
Oh, you won a judgment.
They didn't settle.
No.
And that was on wrongful death, or what was the civil case there?
It was, we sued for my brother's murder, but we didn't have any.
I had no motive then, and so much evidence had been destroyed.
Witnesses had been killed.
At least one of them had.
So it was an intentional infliction of emotional distress.
And as far as I know, it's the only time a court has ever found the United States guilty of intentional infliction of emotional distress.
But we couldn't prove the murder.
I could prove the murder today, but I couldn't then.
It was what I know today, and I didn't know then.
How long after that did you figure out that your brother's murder was connected to the Oklahoma City bombing?
Oh, not until shortly before Tim McVeigh was executed, when I got a message from him.
Oh, so it was years later then.
You had won your lawsuit way back in the mid-90s, I guess.
Late 90s.
And so McVeigh sent me a message saying that when he saw my brother's photograph and heard what happened to him, he wanted me to know that, in his opinion, my brother had been killed because the FBI thought he was Richard Lee Guthrie.
Who was with the ARA and one of the people involved in the bombing in Oklahoma City.
Now, McVeigh didn't say that much, though, right?
You just found that out later on?
Well, when he said Richard Lee Guthrie, I mean, this was a guy, according to the FBI, didn't even know Richard Lee Guthrie.
Right, but McVeigh knew him.
Oh, man.
All right.
Well, and so I guess we're all out of time.
People, I hope you're encouraged, interested now.
I'd like to encourage you to go and look through the archives at scottwharton.org.
There's a lot more interviews of Jesse and somewhere I have them.
Look at the Sensitive Informant.
You'll find a little bit of it on the web, but not much.
The Sensitive Informant, yeah.
You know what?
Let me study up on that and I'll have you back to just talk all about that.
I know we've covered it a bit in the past, but.
And then, you know, I wanted to recommend, it's J.M. Berger.
Is he the one that's got the great archive of your PDF files, too?
I have one somewhere, but I lost it.
Yes.
Yeah, it's Berger, right?
Okay, good.
Yeah, I follow him on Twitter, too.
He's a terrorism expert, and he's got a great archive of Jesse's documents.
I've got one, too, but I don't have the address for it offhand.
Anyway, thanks very much for your time.
I will have you back very soon to talk about the Sensitive Informant program.
And good luck on your lawsuit.
You've been batting 1,000 so far, Jesse, so we'll see how it goes.
Thank you, Scott.
Good luck.
All right, everybody, that was great.
Jesse Trinidou, lawyer out of Utah, survivor of Kenny.
KennyTrinidou.com.
Why does the U.S. support the tortured dictatorship in Egypt?
Because that's what Israel wants.
Why can't America make peace with Iran?
Because that's not what Israel wants.
And why do we veto every attempt to shut down illegal settlements on the West Bank?
Because it's what Israel wants.
Seeing a pattern here?
Sick of it yet?
It's time to put America first.
Support the Council for the National Interest at CouncilForTheNationalInterest.org and push back against the Israel lobby and their sock puppets in Washington, D.C.
That's CouncilForTheNationalInterest.org.
Hey, you own a business?
Maybe we should consider advertising on the show.
See if we can make a little bit of money.
My email address is Scott at ScottHorton.org.
Hey, y'all, Scott Horton here for WallStreetWindow.com.
Mike Swanson is a successful former hedge fund manager whose site is unique on the Web.
Subscribers are allowed a window into Mike's very real main account and receive announcements and explanations for all his market moves.
The Federal Reserve has been inflating the money supply to finance the bank bailouts and terror war overseas.
So Mike's betting on commodities, mining stocks, European markets, and other hedges against a depreciating dollar.
Play along on paper or with real money and be your own judge of Mike's investment strategies.
See what happens at WallStreetWindow.com.
Hey, y'all, Scott here hawking stickers for the back of your truck.
They've got some great ones at LibertyStickers.com.
Get Your Son Killed, Jeb Bush 2016.
FDR, No Longer the Worst President in American History.
The National Security Agency, Blackmailing Your Congressman Since 1952.
And USA, Sometimes We Back Al Qaeda, Sometimes We Don't.
And there's over a thousand other great ones on the wars, police, state elections, the Federal Reserve, and more at LibertyStickers.com.
They'll take care of all your custom printing for your bandier business at TheBumperSticker.com.
LibertyStickers.com.
Everyone else's stickers suck.
Hey, y'all, Scott here inviting you to check out Modern Times Magazine at ModernTimesMagazine.com.
It's a great little independent publication out of Phoenix, Arizona, featuring unique views on economics, politics, foreign policy, sports, and music, with great art scene coverage and fiction writing as well.
That's Modern Times Magazine at ModernTimesMagazine.com.