He has lately been writing for anti war dot com. He is an Air Force veteran and worked for US aid in Iraq and Afghanistan for seven years, and he’s written a book called When Will We Ever Learn About Us? Foer? Impulse. You know what? That’s Ah, the title of the article that Harry Browne wrote on September 11th 2001. Welcome to show, Ron. How are you doing? A great Scott. Thank you for inviting me to come on your show. And, um, you know, give you some feedback on what I know about some of these things we’re talking about. Yeah, well, so this article’s really important here at antiwar dot com. Absurdity of the neo cons, Syrian oil narrative. And when you say that, you really mean it and you break this down by the numbers here. So give us a little bit of that thumbnail sketch you start off talking about, for example, how much oil the Saudis pump and the Iranians pump and how the Syrian oil supplies compared to that so clueless in here, please. Okay, Well, uh, several other steam people have written about the fact that the or Lindh Syria is really just a tiny amount of world supply and really insignificant relative of the cost that we’re gonna incur Trying to keep 500 soldiers and armored vehicles at these particular oil fields in the southern part of the northeast quadrant of Syria that is Gore’s or that oil field is the major oilfield in Syria. But overall, Scott, that all of their oil reserves in Syria amount 2.2% of the world’s oil supply is that mentioned our article. We fought a lot of wars and spent a lot of money in the Middle East for the last 40 years or so, trying to keep the oil flowing, but that had nothing to do with Syria because it’s just always been a drop in the bucket. And what is particularly almost ridiculous about what we hear it out of the White House these days. This idea that even if you could legally acquire that oil and several esteemed people like Daniel Harrison and others have published how the illegality of that just makes that even almost infeasible from the get go. But suppose you could get in there and get what now amounts to about 24,000 barrels a day of production of the Dahr is their fields. That oil, even by the Russians account, is only worth about $30 million a month. $30 million a month is all that oil is worth, and it’s actually contractually Sinai into the Russians anyhow. So you’d be not just stealing oil from the Syrian government. Be Jos to be sterile it from the Russians, which would have its own problems but be on TV last night and caught criminal. Douglas MacGregor People who follow your show Scott in antiwar dot com know that name because he’s the retired colonel that Daniel Macao Adams and Ron Paul said should have been the replacement National security advisor When John Bolton, gut cashier in a couple of about a Munther Citgo whenever that was so gentle. I really take anything that Colonel McGregor says, I think he’s got the right Foer accent. Ah, perspective. And he was on last night’s and that I finally got this number, Scott, that the cost for the US to keep a military presence in Superior and 2018 was get this $16.2 billion. 16 point. And that was when we had about 2000 troops in the country. And that’s just the deal, Idi. That’s not the CIA’s cost for paying the terrorists on the other side. Go ahead, sir. Oh, clearly, clearly. Well, there was a $1,000,000,000 of foreign aid in that number, which is hard. Maybe that’s just the money we pay. This occurred right now that you know the Syrian Democratic forces under General ah, general body, you know, to basically, you know, keep them running is a is a Basically a mercenary army is you know, that’s really all there are for the U. S. In that part of Syria. Medea That’s 16.2 bit quits. Scotto $1.4 billion a month. So we are deploying troops into Syria at a cost to US taxpayers of $1.4 billion a month to protect $30 million a month of oil revenues. Yes. What’s Oprah explain to me? We’re talking about government work here. That makes perfect sense. I know. Well, how s O? Anybody goes on TV like Lindsey Graham or President Kampeas other people and say we’re gonna kept these oil fields to repay the cost of keeping US troops And in Syria, I mean, that’s absurd. I mean, just in the numbers orders of magnitude, out of line, you know, right away. That’s just a bogus argument and statement. They should have brought Paul Wolfowitz out to sell it. Yeah, that would have been about the same amount of credibility and course it just I mean, so that just tells you right from the get go there, that this was never about some sort of economical project to try toe generate revenues to keep U. S forces in Syria. It was not about trying to let the Kurds have a revenue stream to keep their ah counterinsurgency efforts against Isis. Going, I mean, is I think I missed my article. It would have been much cheaper if the U. S d o d just have look, it’s gonna cost us $1.4 billion a month to keep soldiers in their toe. Pretend we’re protecting oil. Won’t just give that money to the Kurds and tell them by your own oil on the open market. Get our troops out of harm’s way and let the let the Syrian government eventually deal with long term disposition the oil in the country. So that’s again just starting from the simple numbers and fax. It never made any sense to say that this anything to do with, you know, keeping getting money to cover the cost. Of course, at that cost of the U. S. Troops and of course, doing that, any out would be pillar during another country’s oil, which would be a war crime in itself. So that’s Yukio just writes. Cross that one off. There’s any legitimate reason why were presumably keeping a military presence in Syria. Yeah, and you know, it does raise questions about force protection, too. I mean, I don’t think that there’s any opposing army anywhere nearby, despite any scaremongering about Iran or Hezbollah. They’re not gonna secon American base there. But Isis fighters might get a suicide bomber in there. Some leftover guys and you have. And we’ve seen this happen before, in Beirut and at Khobar and numerous times during Iraq war to where guys air essentially left wide open at a base and taken out in one big bomb. And so who knows if they even have enough? You know, I actually have a friend of my reddit room who said, What’s all this about? They sent armor to the oil fields. That can’t be right, because when I was in the military, we did the survey planning for that and decided it can’t be done. So that’s not that can’t be right. And I says, Well, here’s read it and weep, man. Here’s all the Bradleys They’re going and called it in a task and purpose. The headline was Operation turned the F around and go back Thio, take over these oil fields and he’s saying, Oh my God, it’s this view, guys, and I don’t know all the military terminology perfectly or whatever he’s saying like Oh, it must be such a small fraction of a division sent there and was such a long tail of a supply line from there to Iraq. And with this is just at from a military, you know, planner, a lieutenant, colonel or or lower kind of point of view. This is just crazy to do. Some politician thought this was smart, but if he was one of those fighters out there, he wouldn’t like it at all. Is what he was saying. Well, it seems, Scott, what happened is you can see how the Pentagon now is scrambling around trying to make this operational plan work. Yugo Wone that trumpet Lynndie Graeme announced almost off the cuff, Remember a week or so ago and you’re dead, right? That there’s operationally having been in Iraq and haven’t been in Anbar and Bin Diyala side, the big base that they’re using the support. The Dahr reserve fields were out 200 kilometers, maybe two and 50 kilometers across the border into Syria. And that’s the base, by the way, that’s the base. We also launched the Chinooks from to do the Bin Ghandi raid a pinto up in the province, you know, a couple weeks ago. So that’s that’s the big operational footprint that the U. S still hasn’t Iraqis. Only big bass we still have. When I was there in 070 wait, we had five or six big air bases Bin. Now we’re down to just this one. They’re a little bit outside of the west of Baghdad and Anbar Province, and that’s kind of why your friend is exactly right. The other than to give you some other numbers is that it’s not the cost of the soldiers that is running that number up to 16 day. And it’s the fact that soldiers cost. This is the number I know from Afghanistan. Cost about a $1,000,000 per year per soldier to put one in the field in a war zone, so that’s only $500 million a year. The rest of that money, Scott, is what your friend said. It’s the air support from the air base is over, and the person golf is the quick response teams, in this case, probably from al Assad, is the net evac The metal back is really the key issue here because the D. O. D. Has a rule that familiar with from both Iraq and Afghanistan, they will not put a U. S. Combat soldier in a situation where they can not get a medevac helicopter to him. Get him out, I say him or her. But most of these operational people don’t love over man. At that point, get them back out to a what they call a Rove Nature Roll three medical facility, which is basically a trauma center with Western quality doctors. And I can tell you the only place in that part of the world that there’s a roll three NATO medical center is al Assad. So they’re really counting on keeping Al Assad is a U. S. Footprint in that part of the world the Middle East area between Syria, Jordan and Iraq. Can you keep these troops deployed there at Dahr Sauron? And that’s why the rial viability of that presence in mission depends on the Iraqi government. Continue to let the U. S military retained Al Assad is an operational base in that area and run. There’s not gonna be real happy about the let the U. S. Run anti isis missions like the one to get Baghdad e, but you that government, as you know, has got its problems right now and they’re gonna really let the U. S. Military run war profiteering missions into Syria to steal the Syrians oil out of Al Assad. So if the government doesn’t fall, which could happen, as you know, is likely that with the pressure from Iran, his influence, the fact that the Grand Ayatollah Soltan, who is the support of the most authoritative voice in the country, has already said he wants foreign influence in her in Afghan and Iraq toe no cease to get it out, which includes the U. S. Probably to some extent, Iran. And of course, he’s upset that Israel is running missions into their based on U. S. Intelligence that they probably get from the U. S. Footprint in Iraq. So that’s gonna that’s gonna really dictate. So, you know, no matter what Washington says and what the Congress says, once they get to the point where we lose al Assad is a footprint, I can almost tell your listeners that we’re going to be out of Syria. Could it’s just not feasible toe. Maintain those people there in that dangerous situation. You can fly F sixteen’s overhead, all that sort of stuff. But when a soldier gets wounded her seriously, they’ve got to get a medevac in there to get him out. And those those missions, they’re not going to run from Jordan Mencken. It’s what it’s actually too far away. They can probably run tow outs in F. That’s that’s probably legitimate, President. It’s there because they’re relatively close of this space in eastern Syria called H four, which is a sort of a drone base there that they could probably at least get helicopters for those guys and they begin it back. Come on or something for the proper medical care. But that’s gonna be that’s gonna be Lt Dov May turned out to be sustainable to some extent, the night duty. Even people like Scott Ritter knows a lot more about this, and I to even doubts that’s even possible and certainly sees the Dahr Ansar presence is something that’s just not gonna be operationally feasible. Once they really analyze this thing further, hang on just one second. Hey, guys, ever tell you about liberty stickers dot com? It’s just nothing but anti government propaganda for the back of your truck. I invented most of them the good ones, anyway, Anti war stuff. Anti cops making fun of all the candidates in the upcoming election. Liberty stickers dot com Hey, guys, check out the great lineup of podcasts we’ve got going on over at the Libertarian Institute. There’s me foreign policy and focused with Call Anzalone Freeman Beyond the Wall with Peak, Winona’s a k A Man’s Raider, The Liberty Weekly podcast with Patrick Macfarlane and Keith Night, and our newest addition, Jen Libertarian with Jen Monroe. Check them all out at Libertarian Institute Dot or GE. Hey, guys, don’t think it be cool if you could go to college, but Tom Woods was the dean of the thing. Yeah, well, something like that. Check out liberty classroom dot com, where Tom Woods went, had his pick of all the best professors to teach their courses in, uh, the real history and economics that you didn’t learn when you went to college the first time around, or maybe didn’t learn because you skipped your higher education altogether. But, ah, here’s some riel American history and some real economics, the kind of stuff that you’ve been missing. It’s all liberty classroom dot com and make sure to click through the link in the right hand margin of my website. Scott horton dot ord. All right, I’m talking with Ron Ends Wyler writing for anti war dot com, former Air Force and U. S aid and we’re talking about Trump pulled the troops out of northeastern Syria, where they were standing between the Kurds and the Turks, and that situation is more or less resolving itself. You can comment on that a little bit if you like, but just setting up here that Trump started to pull those troops out into Iraq. And then, as you say in your article here, Jack Keane, the author of the Iraq and Afghan Surges Sorry the failed Iraq and Afghan surges went on TV and said, Hey, Trump, you gotta steal that oil or else someone else is going to get it or something like that. And it was that easy to get Trump to turn right around and order this toe happen. And so this is where we get back to what you mentioned, that this is absolutely illegal. In fact, the war in Syria the D. O. D. Presents itself is completely illegal. The O. M. F doesn’t count against Isis and the government under Obama when they launched Iraq War three at which includes eastern Syria, didn’t argue that it did, really. They just went ahead anyway. And the sovereign government of Syria has said We’re not welcome this old time, so we’re not allowed there at all, and then much less to come in and outright steal. The resource is which is against the international law that the United States of America wrote for the rest of the world. And what’s even more ridiculous, Scott, Because that, of course, is right on this idea that an American oil company and of course, Trump’s Pacifica mentioned Exxon Mobil. Someone other in the middle of this war zone would go in there and effect with the U. S. Force protection as minimal as it is and basically invest what probably needs to be a couple $1,000,000,000 to bring that oil field Dahr solar field back up to its pre war production. Probably that particular field might be in the 300,000 barrels per day range Total serial range before the war is about 4000. But I mean that you just mentioned that no U. S oil company is going to be involved in pillaging another country’s oil. They’re not gonna make a capital investment in a country that’s in a war zone. I think I think of my article. I mentioned Yalom. McGurk was the terrorist advisor there for the government actually ran this idea past Rex Tillerson when he was secretary of state. And obviously, if anybody knows how Exxon Mobil operates and makes decisions just Rex Dulles and their ex CEO and even said, this is completely illegal as we got the Syrian government in the Russians who have the contractual rights involved in the whole project and neither one had ideas. So plus, you look at it that potentially with restored fields that could be a $5 billion a year revenue, remember revenue or is not profit. Someone has to invest money. Someone has to operate the field. Someone has to transport the oil, so you might need a couple $1,000,000,000 out of that. You normally would pay the host country royalty so that that would be required under a foreign direct investment situation. So there’s a couple $1,000,000,000 there that could net back to whatever government to the Syrian government, for example, which is mixing feasibility. But the conditions right now don’t even make that remotely possible so that you have to have the peace going. And that’s what makes it really meant. Have we all know that the only law for Exxon is money, not do anything that they want or Cannes up to the limit of what doesn’t make business sense? Then all of a sudden the law kicks in and, yeah, you know we can’t do it. And it’s obvious why it appeals to Trump. That’s what he always complained about. Iraq War two was the relative cost, he said. We didn’t even take the oil, which like what we’re gonna do, scoop it up with one big spoon and bring it home with us to pump later. But yeah, that that, of course, was completely I mean, getting. He’s just fueling up anti. This imperialism and pillar. Jane is just making us image in that part of the world. You know, all the more negative and society more terrorism because everyone thinks now it’s true. I remember not too long ago Assad himself when on TV and said, At least Trump is I liked Leupp being honest about what the U. S is doing is the most transparent president. Every cent question. Yeah, yeah, that at least he’s being honest about it. You know, he’s admitting what the U. S has always done. So I know. Tell you what. You know. If Trump is really a peacenik and was just trolling and trying to make everyone react against him in this way, it would be perfect. Unfortunately, no, he’s really that horrible, but it would be perfect. Trolling Efraim Joscelyn Wasat. It’s not even nail that it’s all the lobby’s that were that control Washington You know, the oil lobby, the he mentioned. The arms industry lobby didn’t exactly mention the Israeli lobby, but that was implied in what he said. So, yeah, I mean, the lobby’s air controlling these decisions by the Pentagon and the Congress on howto maintain. This is what you know, Daniel Harrison said, was exactly right. We just made up three or four reasons why we would You need to keep a U. S troop presence in Syria, But it’s all about, you know, stopping the so called Shia Crescent supply line from Iran into Damascus. And yeah, that’s exactly what time it is. All of Altona is all about. That was right on that highway. But the presence there in the not too far away and in Syria is also intended to keep the U. S presence there and hopefully revived the or the war with the Kurds. The Syrian defense forces to try toe this crazy idea, Scott, that we need to guard those fields to keep Isis from coming in and taking the whale when isis has no operational capability. No present is to do that no capital or run that type operation. That’s just another just, you know, made of idea toe try, toe, get the U. S. Public. Someone other support this and all the talking heads on television, of course. Say that Which is, of course I mean the other course. Ridiculous. Wone that mission. My article is the idea of we leave or Ron’s gonna come in there and take the oil when you know 30 million barrels, $30 million a month is a drop in the bucket, even though what they’re now generating, even with the sanctions in terms of or Lindh hydrocarbon Rove profits. So they’re gonna go in there and jeopardize their chance to get back to their 4.5 million barrels a day. You know, 43 or $4 billion a month type of revenues to get uneasily Amman Hadar Oil out of Syria, which would have to fight their allies, Russia and the Assad government even take so that just we went. I mean, the all the absurdities of these bad guys. After that, we’re tryingto protect against her. Just all just straw, man, that got put up to sort of justified the presents to, you know, basically satisfy the And by the way, that article was on anti war dot com today, the one from The Spectator in the UK by John Bradley. He just nails that right to the final fact that this is all about Trumpian to get re elected based on keeping the evangelicals happy and the pro Israel lobby happy and leaving a few troops. They’re saying we’re tryingto protect Israel from the Syrian aggression in that part of the world is fundamentally the rationale Why, where even spending $16 billion of taxpayer money to protect a teeny amount of oil, which is not even Taba Stasi related to the reality of the situation Yep. I’m gonna go back to your point about the bait and switch here where this isn’t about. Oh, we have to protect the Syrian Kurds. That’s Obaid and Switch. And it’s not even a bait and switch. Foer. Well, we really have to stay there to fight Isis, not they’ve been essentially eliminated and obliterated from Eastern serious, not Isis. The real jihadists in Syria, everybody knows, are American turkeys pets up in the Midland Province in the northwest of it. So it’s not that it’s a double extra bait and switch. It’s all about Iran. And what about Iran? As you said, it’s not preventing them from getting the oil and running off with it. It’s about then being able to move things by truck into Syria when they can fly stuff anyway. And when. If there’s a solution to the problem off the jeopardy of the Kurds and the vulnerability of the rest of the Syrians, including the Kurds, to the last remnants of the presence off the Islamic state in eastern Syria, the obvious solution is for the Syrian government, with the help of the Iranian and Hezbollah and Russian friends to reestablish their territorial monopoly with their army in that country to keep the Turks out, to keep Isis down and to try toe, rebuild their country, put it back together again, and then you have this great quote in this piece just kills me where they admit outright that that is really what they’re trying to prevent more than anything. Same reason they built up these jihadist forces in the first place is the same reason they want to keep serial broke. Not because they hate Syria, not cause even they hate Assad. Or they just don’t want to see Syria rebuilt in resentment for them defeating our Al Qaeda friends there in this war. But just so that they remain a financial burden on Iran. And the truth is Scott the only entity that once they separate Kurdistan there in the northeast Syria, which is kind of what, of course, the Syrian Kurds were aiming towards a legend. The U. S. Promised them, which I can assure you they did not. But that is basically Israel would like to see a separate Kurdistan because it lets the only one country around there. There’s a little bit of a good relationship there, and they get along somewhat and, of course, the U S. And just backs that. And but, you know, creating a separate Kurdistan there in eastern Syria would just, you know, that would cause all sorts of Bronx Turki with Iran. You know, they all have Kurdish minorities in their area. And it’s really funny, Scott, because I was in Iraq in 07 or eight. The idea. Irgun Arak up into three separate entities. Kurt, the Iraqi Kurdistan of the North and she and the South and the Sunnis in the West. That was vetoed. Bye Washington Simply because they knew that creating the Illing, Iraqi Kurdistan become autonomous country or even south Kobani region would be completely anathema. Toe Iran, Syria, Well, Iran and Turkey. And of course, at that point, Syria and not really got into a civil war yet, So it should also be against all that. So they backed off that idea, which actually might Hameed Arak a more stable place, long term. But that’s always been not a viable scenario, which is so interesting now that we we flipped out when Wone, 80 saying that we need a separate Kurdistan in that part of the world Theo, hold back Iran from being more powerful in tow. You know, keep Shias you mentioned exactly. Right. Keep keep the Assad government in a weak position of not even overthrown at some point basically, to make that part of the world a safer place for the the Israeli Zionist, you know, which, by the way, your article. Your podcast. Khalis. Oprah Shelton. Rachman was just so informed ship on the whole subject. I really listen to it. Listen to that one. Because I think he nailed it, too. Of course, that’s what this is all about. I mean, you can’t really say that in the US press, but the U. S. Suspected from the UK and John Bradley. Hoboken say that, and he actually did an excellent article, which I encourage everyone to read on anti war dot com because he’s is spot on to what’s really going on here. Yep, all domestic politics. And ah, it’s interesting, innit? Right away. Domestic politics, rules, foreign policy and foreign policy rules, domestic politics. And it’s just stuck like this in the Yeah, there’s no way around it, and it’s just let’s face, it’s got no matter works out of the al Yugo to that just aren’t good options out there. Who’s going to really be a change agent and really get us off this situation that in my book I talk about how it’s just, you know, we’re just going off the cliff here in terms of financial solvency of our country, creating enemies around the world. Everything we do, you know, this that is the answer. It’s it’s the broken dollar that’s gonna finally in this, Uh, yeah, for a politician makes the right goal, that’s for sure. I think I think David Stockman is called that a couple times. And of course he knows what he’s talking about. So I think that’s probably where this and unfortunately, the political process isn’t going to solve. It even matter who you elect initial X. I’m gonna says they’re gonna do all this. The Washington establishment just mowed them under, you know, just, you know, I appreciate soc Gabb, but she’s got the right message. And by the way, she did file legislation trying to deal with the legality of what we’re doing in Syria. But you think there’s any chance nasty places don’t bring that up for a vote of course not. You will never see. Our democracy does not work when it comes to challenging the status quo in Washington. Yeah, as Tom Woods law. No matter who you vote for, you always get John McCain. Ah, that’s a good Harlingen. So that maybe rest in peace kiss. You know, he’s the big he and Lynndie Graeme and jacking that you mentioned the big liars about Obama pulled the troops out of Iraq and that he created Isis. When the truth is the Grand Ayatollah Yasar Taayie had already said Get these troops out of here. And that’s what caused, you know, the status of forces agreement not to be extended. And that’s why we got kicked out of nothing. Do with Obama in the No, no, thank you. I would have never come back if it hadn’t have been for Obamas support for their efforts in Syria next door. I mean, you know, in real time, Patrick Coburn warned on this show G. I just got back from Baghdad and all the Shia leaders there are saying American support for the Sunni insurgency in Syria is re energizing the Sunni insurgency hair and that is this really what we’re doing. How changing sides as long as you’re on that side of the line. We all saw it coming for years before they took Mosul on created the caliphate. So and I think the bottle on your Scott is that foreign intervention has unintended consequences, and we’re never gonna be able to make these things work. When there’s so many interrelated parts and variables, once you intervene, take out a government of regime change. Start bombing people. You create enemies. The facts on the ground change, you get stuck in a quagmire. I mean, thank goodness there’s a few people in Washington like I mentioned Colonel McGregor in Colonel Workers and, by the way, was Kolache piles chief of staff. Although they don’t have the same has good ideas to on this. And you kind of wish these other talking to his generals, you know, guys like Petraeus and the Crystal and Jack Keane and the Crave Inn. John Allen. These are all guys that were in Iraq when I was in Afghanistan. I was over there. These guys are just, you know, they’re just propaganda pieces for the War state and what actually what? Pepe Cannes and calls the warfare state. So you really, really got You know, it’s amazing how these guys get so much publicity and there’s time when they’re just proven losers in terms of the strategy and the execution of war plans that we’ve been through for the last 15 18 years. And you know what? You could be 10 years old and never heard these arguments at all. And all you have to know is that this war started back in 2000 and one, and we’re having this conversation now, eight years later, we’ve been trying really hard to kill the 400 guys who, you know, were in the group that attacked us back then and somehow we just created 40,000 of them. I just don’t know if you have to know anything about it, but that to know that something’s not right here. And, you know, we’ve spent an additional 7.5 being in military spending over that period. And even the people in charge now admit that you make sure you’re safe today than they were. I’m sorry, Trey. And yet you’re right. I’m sorry. Yeah, it’s our guys. These numbers, right? With what are you talking about June 2003 course. That’s 1/3 of our current debt right now. $23 billion. $22 billion. So that’s 1/3 of that debt is simply this war on terror that we started in 2000 and one and two and then continue today and buy any Wonsan mission. Since we kill Baghdadi, they’d come back. And Orwell, it’s not over. They’re going to new leader. We’ve got to keep going to keep spending more money. We can’t bring anybody home. So I mean, this is endless. The famous endless war Is that your self perpetuating? Because it were fueling the terrorism that we’re presuming out there trying to defeat and, you know, having lived there and work there long as I did, I could see that in none of these, there’s no viable strategy other than get out of there That’s ever going to make Americans safer. And that’s you know, unfortunately, that’s not the political dynamic that’s in Washington right now. That’s anyway, anywhere close to being effectuated Aviv. No matter how our politics go. Yeah, All right. Well, thank you very much. Everybody, that is Ronald Ends Wyler. He used to be Ah, in the U. S. Air Force and also worked for US aid in Iraq and Afghanistan. And he’s the author of the book When will We Ever Learn? And you can find what he’s been writing lately at antiwar dot com. Thanks very much. You’re welcome. All right, Sean, that is anti war radio for this morning. Thanks very much for listening. I’m Scott Horton, editorial director of antiwar dot com and author of Fool’s Errand. Timed and the War in Afghanistan by my full interview archive. More than 5000 of them now going back to 2003 at scott horton dot org’s and I’m Here Every Sunday morning from 8 39 on KPFK 90.7 f m Cnet.

Ah, for their protest at the Kings Bay Trident submarine nuclear facility There. Uh, Yul might remember we had Elizabeth McCallister on this show just a couple of weeks ago What, three days before the trial started, I guess, um, a few weeks ago Ah, well, they were convicted. And so Francis Boyle is here to talk about the trial and what comes next and all the rest of those things. So welcome back to the show, sir. How are you? Well, thank you very much for having me on my best. Your listening audience. Well, great. I’m very happy to have you here, sir. So please remind us about the the Kings Bay Plowshares seven who they are and exactly what happened here. That’s at issue. Well, these are, ah, religious people affiliated with the Catholic Workers and also the Ploughshares movement that was founded around 19 eggy by Phil Berrigan, Dan Berrigan and Phil’s wife, Lizza Macao Alistair, whom you’ve already talked to. And they went on the King’s Bay trying to, uh, nuclear weapons site that has the trying to nuclear subs there on the east Coast. They got in there. They did what? You know, they call to be ah, symbolic disarmament. Ah, they prayed and things of that nature. They were arrested voluntarily. They were peaceful, nonviolent. They did not resist arrest. Andrei Eeyore, United States government indicted them Foer Deputation of government property 10 years Ah, Destruction of naval property five years Destruction of US government property. Five years. Yeah, naval property conspiracy Five years and trust past six months. So, um, we I work Foer Lizza Macao Alistair She was represented by my friend Bill, quickly. Listen, I have been friends for many years as well. Ansar, Uh, her late husband, Phil, and I’ve represented them in other contexts. The other kings make plowshares, uh, decided to represent themselves. And there were basically two. Why would say three approaches to defending them? The first was the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Ah, this is the first time ever to best my knowledge that such a defense was made in one of these PowerShares cases. And then the second, uh, Dan Ellsberg of put it in an affidavit on the basis of his book of the Armageddon machine, which I encourage you read, outlining the necessity defense. And then I had a very extensive declaration. I hears about nine pages long you can find on the Internet. It is stupid. Public accuracy are going through a lengthy international law violations criminal law violations. Ah, by trying to and concluding that they really did not have the criminal intent, uh, necessary to constitute these crimes. And in any event, the government had to prove that credible intent beyond a reasonable doubt. And certainly my declaration had created a reasonable doubt, and the charges should be dismissed Now on the Friday evening at 10 p.m. In the dead of night before the trial was open on Monday morning. The U. S. Federal judge, who is a Bush junior appointee, by the way I’ve dealt with them before, issued an order that struck them off A ll defenses They could not make any of these defenses and in addition, muscle that as to their capability to to raise these types of issues in their own ah, testimony and also threaten them and their lawyers with contempt if they did not know and other harsh sanctions if they, uh missile mater or so after reading your right, I did put out a press release their Mr for public accuracy, saying, This is a kangaroo court with rubber stamp on a railroad towards their conviction. And that’s exactly what happened in court. You could read the transcript if you want. At the King’s May Plough share website, they repeatedly cut off, interrupted They they were threatened with contempt, etcetera, etcetera. So not only were they stripped of all their defenses illegally, unconstitutionally, they were muzzled and threatened on the witness stand. So of course they were convicted. Yeah, Well, so And of course, I just assumed that the jury was full of not the peers of the accused but the peers of the accusers, just like always, which is, you know, a big part of it. Meaning government employees from the local area, probably as well. But now, I mean, I don’t know. I guess if you give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe if they got to hear the defense’s side of the story, they would have at least had a chance. Um, it’s correct. But not only that up, there’s a good chance they would have been acquitted. I’ve worked on these up cases before, Uh, on the first anti nuclear protests case I ever did. Foer Kochs Christie was 1982. Uh, the first Paulish Aires case I did was 1985. You could read about this in two books I’ve written of defending Civil Resistance under International Law 1987 which I wrote for lawyers to use in these cases and made later another book protesting power. More resistance in law. Aah! Brahmin littlefield about publishers 2008. And when we’ve been able to get these arguments to the jury. Uh, we have been able, uh, to get outright acquittals or hung Juries, at least. Really? Yes. I didn’t realize that. Well, and I guess so That was gonna be one of my other questions was how often is it that the judges are this total in banning the defense from even being allowed to put on a case in this way? It’s typical in clashes cases. Yes, they don’t really care that no federal judges here, they’re just part of the federal system. And you have to understand that, uh, the ploughshares go directly at the heart of the American Empire against the Pentagon. Indeed, the U. S. Department of Injustice has a special task force to deal with, Ah, plowshares cases to monitor them, to direct the persecutions, I would call it and always to go for the max to go for the maximum charges and the maximum sentences. And that’s been the consistent pattern that I’ve seen since doing these cases in 1985. Foer Foer the postures. Yeah, well, I mean, let’s break this down a little bit when you say go after they’re doing symbolic protests, they’re not truly threatening to disable any nuclear weapons or, you know, they’re not cutting open the fence of the Al Qaeda terrorist Cannes sneak in there not doing anything other than creatively protest ng and committing acts of civil disobedience to bring public attention to the danger of these weapons. So it goes to show just how important nipping even that is nipping that in the bud is to the state that they don’t want it to look like any old nun Cannes protest a nuclear weapons facility and get away with it ever because somebody else might copy her. And that’s a pretty total stand to take against what on the surfaces. Just kind of, you know, left wing direct action protest tactics, which aren’t really dangerous. It’s like they’re breaking windows at Starbucks or something terrible like that, you know? Well, everything you said is correct. Ghandi. I worked on the case of ah, three nuns there in Denver who went out to an I C B M Silas Ayn cut the fence, went in there and great. And the, uh, federal government. It was again Cannes total Kadima Yul court proceeding before a Bush junior judge, and they were found guilty of depredation and sabotage. And then the United States government demanded 30 years, 30 years, the maximum for both of them. And they were elderly. They were between 66 67 years old. This would have been wife in prison, Minh. Um, and, you know, at the end of the day, they got short of three. So this is typical because the United States government understands this goes right up against the heart of what the Pentagon is all about. Yeah. Yugo into these trials, ex cases which I have you known, you’re up against the Pentagon. That’s is really behind the Department of Injustice. So persecuting these people now, I would only make one correction there. Scotsman Weicker, This is not a case in civil disobedience. Go that, you know, going back to Dr King and the American civil rights movement, the courageous African Americans and others who supported them. Um, this is a case of civil resistance, Uh, in that the crimes here are being committed by the United States. Gotcha. In violation of international criminal law and, ah, us domestic criminal Waal, including, but not limited to the Nuremberg Charter judgment and principles. I outlined these briefly in my nine page ah declaration which you are free to re also U s Army field manual 27 10 um, the Geneva Conventions and other basic sources of ah international criminal law. So and that gets incorporated into United States domestic wall, the U. S. A. War crimes act, for example. So these people aren’t disobeying anything. They are obeying the rules of international law which are part of the United States. Moammar and also us crippled walk in trying to prevent the ongoing commission off crimes. Um and so they are the sheriffs and the people running the trying to system there. The outlaws, I think I just figured out why the judge won’t let you testify. Well, it’s exactly right. And that was all set forth in my declaration if if you read it. But when we get these arguments to the jury’s oh, and I have enough time to present these arguments and we can bring in an expert witness on US nuclear weapons systems like paying Ellsberg that we wanted to do here, we could usually turn around a jury and getting acquittal, if not, you know, Hung jury. Sure. Yeah, I’ve done it myself. uh, by myself. Sure, it’s interesting it on. I’m so interested in the topic of nuclear weapons and and all the politics surrounding them and everything. And I’m just ceaselessly fascinated by how little anyone cares about this, that set when it’s a new story like this. But for the most part, these things they’re just out of sight, out of mind, even though everyone knows enough about them to know that one good Wone Cannes kill a whole city and that that’s bad and that, at best, we’ve got a bunch of lawyers in charge of deciding when they should be used. The same kinds of soulless monsters that would put old lady in prison for life for praying at a facility are the same kinds of people who decide whether to use these or not. And so far we’ve been lucky. But it just sort of goes without saying in our society, and I guess around the world that yeah, well, we’re just gonna all have Or not all but many nations are going to have aged bombs pointed at each other from now on, the Nonproliferation Treaty and the rest of these things you cite notwithstanding and anyway, what’s for lunch and that nobody cares, really. They care more about TV shows and they care about h bombs. And ah, I’m not sure why. I guess Well, we all know we’re powerless to doing there. We feel powerless to do anything about it. That’s a big part of it. But, boy, what an emergency. You know, to think that these guys air holding on toe bombs that are measured in the mega tons when they detonate, right. And in the case of the trident to its use, uh, would probably destroy all humanity. These are, you know, 150 kill Aton bombs, maybe 10 size 10 times the size of Parachini, my Nagasaki and many warheads. And it would definitely set off a, uh, you know, a major nuclear war between the United States and Russia. Indochina and I don’t think anyone would survive human life would be, uh, extinguished. And according to ah, scientific study, Ah ah, the on Lee ah form of life that would survive of the cockroaches because their shells would would resist the radiation. So that’s what we’re dealing with as Foer list Macao. Alistair, hold that thought for just one second because I should mention that, you know, there are are less, um, drastic scenarios for that that still include the deaths of billions of people and widespread famine and essentially, the cancellation of human civilization back to bronze age levels and absolute catastrophe beyond anyone’s imagination. But that, you know, and the Southern Hemisphere, some humans air would be able to pull through, you know, eventually this kind of thing. So maybe it wouldn’t be down to the cockroaches, but it would certainly be. I mean, without question, right? A war between America and Russia would mean absolutely. That question would mean the end of all northern civilization on the planet and and certainly the destruction of billions and billions and billions of whoever’s left after that. So anyway, I just Sometimes people hear, hear things stated so totally and maybe dismiss it that, like, I don’t know, you could have a war where hundreds of millions or billions die, but maybe not all eight billion of us. You know, we would have brought on Dan Ellsberg in with his new book that I would encouraged you read. Oh, I have. And I’ve talked with him about it. Brahmins times. Yeah, I I think dance opinion would have been, uh, using the trying to nuclear weapons system would have extinguished basically all forms of life on the planet Earth and turned it into, ah, radioactive wasteland for cockroaches. That that, you know, we could have had Dan address that precise issue. That’s what we recorded. And, hey, I’m with you. Everybody needs to read the doomsday machine. I mean, that thing will absolutely blow your mind. The indigenous listen, firstly, involved in drawing US nuclear war plans. So he Neo has enormous credibility here. The reason I even bothered to dispute is actually have another friend. Um, you might remember Gordon pray there from the George W. Bush years, right? So much great stuff for anti war dot com to bunking all the lies about Iran’s supposed nuclear weapons program and that kind of thing. And he used to make a TSH bombs for Uncle Sam during the Cold War and knows a hell of a lot about it and says like a you know, if you survive the initial dose of radiation, you’re far enough away from the actual explosions. Um, you know, you’re not gonna The radiation eventually dissipates from that. So you survive that. And then obviously, weather patterns changing and crop failures and all those things, you know? No, I don’t think he discounts nuclear winter altogether, but I think he he also said that Yeah, some of those things might be absolute worst case scenarios to. So then again, I mean, I think at the if this is the low end of the sliding scale that we’re still talking about, billions of deaths were still talking about catastrophe beyond anyone’s imagination. That’s hardly an argument for going ahead and hang on to these things, you know? Well, Dr Helen hold account has written books on the dangers of radiation, and I think she would respectfully disagree with this. Ah, person. Also, Dr Struggle, as is written the book on the radiation. So I don’t think we would have had much difficulty if we had a chance. Uh, establishing in court that certainly the Yusra trying to nuclear weapons systems, uh, would have extinguished life on the planet Earth as we know it, but that, you know, you’re welcome, Uri. Doctor. Cold, hot and stirring glass. Yeah. You know, maybe I should get ah, her and or Dan back on the show to talk about that. And exactly, I mean, the tried and we’re talking about one missile with multiple warheads launched from Wone submarine. And that alone could extinguish all life in France or something. But if you’re saying that, that was if the use of one of those would mean unstoppable chain of events that would lead to full scale nuclear exchange between American Russia, America and China, then that’s a different question, right? Sure. Yeah. Anyway, I’m sorry. I don’t mean to bicker with you here. I’m absolutely on your side. And the idea that you would ever that that any that humanity can even entertain the possibility that we would hold on to weapons that even the use of one of which would kill an entire city worth of human beings is just absolutely, unforgivably mad. So not to coin a phrase, but anyway, right, well, a zay said the The systems on both sides the United States and Russia are on a hair trigger alert that could go off at any time and even in the event of a computer malfunction or a flight of geese or band satellite images or things of that know the cases I’ve worked on. We have introduced evidence of repeated malfunctions on warning systems, so it’s far more dangerous. I think, that most people realize, right, Yeah, there have been at least 20 extremely close calls tow absolute brink of war, which I don’t I’m not really good with Maven’s Statistics and stuff, But that sounds, you know, a cat only has nine lives. We got away with 20 almost h bomb wars over Ms takes right over a bomb that accidentally fell out of a plane or misunderstanding between the Americans and the Soviets over their intentions at different times. And these kinds of things that’s cutting it way, way, way too close. Effect. No, my dad was at U. C. L. A. In 1963 and his professor disappeared for two weeks and came back and said, Yeah, I was there advising the ex Com. And I’m here to tell you kids that this Cuban missile crisis is this close to nuclear war, as we could possibly get without having Wone that is the absolute brink of the crisis. The fact that we survived it is a miracle. Well, and as a matter of fact, if you study all the letter drawn the Cuban missile crisis that that’s exactly correct. We came, uh, with a hair breath away off nuclear war with the Soviet Union that that’s cracked. Indeed. I, uh, Artie to that effect in Scotland in a court in a chronic Scotland, uh, where three women went out and damaged a tender for the UK Tried in twos that we gave them. Um and, uh, at that I argued that exact point. If you’re interested, you could see that my argument testimony Website Foer Trident Ploughshares Talal the British Way p l o u g h S h A R E s 2000 Oh, and at the end of the day, we got a directed verdict from the judge over acquittal. Oh, on behalf of all three of them, Foer Foer chart four different charges each on various different counts of destruction of property and even made the British press the next day saying our nuclear deterrent is illegal, which which it is. We have to understand that despite all this nonsense about deterrence, that’s a joke in a frog. All our weapons, our strategic nuclear weapons, are designed Foer offensive First Strike, Strategic nuclear attack on Russia or China are now other targets that we allege have nuclear weapons. And indeed, Maginot Doctor Michaux Kochs wrote a book on this. The physicists you see him on TV called for a strike and eagles through it all there the number of times we threatened or prepared for first strike of nuclear weapons. So these weapons, they’re not there to deter anything. They are there to be used in a first strike. Indeed, in a plowshares case I worked up on Wisconsin Tom and Ron Howard Hastings Ah, they had damaged the e l F towers that communicate. We’re trying to submarines. And they were both facing charges of sabotage. And we brought in a naval Capt. Retired. He used to command submarines, and he says it’s well known that the E L F. Dryden to system ah, will be the bell ringer for the start of an offensive. First strike strategic nuclear war. Well, with his testimony and my testimony and my arguments, we got out right acquittals for both of us. So again, it goes back to the point when Juries actually here. Ah, the destructive I mean, we’re talking about weapons that far exceeds even the wildest fantasies of Hitler and the Nazis. If you study those, these are natural weapons to the umpteenth time. And when Juries get to hear that, and then the that that this is ongoing criminal activity conspiracy, planning, preparation to commit Nuremberg, crimes against humanity, war crimes, crimes against peace and outright genocide typically no quit. And by the way, the United States government knows that the Department of Justice does that, which is why they fight so hard to keep up my testimony out of there. And even my declarations were even putting aside me testifying your court, which I was standing by to fly out there. Even my declarations by two declarations they did not get to see, even though they’re they’re filed with the court. The second declaration. I submit it after the Trump administration pulled out of the I N F tree and I itemized in that second declaration again, which you could find on the King’s Obaid Plowshares website. Now the dangers that are facing us that these high enough weapons now will be deployed by the United States, first against Russia and also against China and reduce warning time. Uh, from the time they’re set off to the time they Landay neither Moscow, St Petersburg or elsewhere two, maybe 3 to 5 minutes. So I had the same will be true with respect to China. So clearly they are there as part of an offense and first strike nuclear weapons system against Russia against China. There’s no question about it if you study the literature, and Dan would agree with me that that was the bidding. You know, if we had abandoned me, it would have been the 12 punch there. Well, it’s always been clear, you know, for the project Offputting the so called defensive missiles in Eastern Europe that that was part of an offensive package, it was just meant to be able to shoot down their retaliatory strike to make it easier to launch a first strike in the first place. In fact, when the Russians are now pointing out that in fact, we are putting ah, Tomahawk cruise missiles in there in those launchers are nuclear capable and that therefore they have an offensive capability and not just are there for defense. And the Russians said, you know, if you do that, we will have to respond in kind. So I forget if it was at a G eight conference or something like that when George W. Bush said that, you know, it was like an aside, I think, some international conference with a bunch of European leaders there and that kind of thing. And he says, Well, you know, this is all just you know, these missiles air going into Poland to protect from Iran and the whole room just busted out laughing already knows Iran doesn’t have any missiles that can hit Poland and doesn’t have any nukes and doesn’t have a beef with Poland of all places. And what he talking about, This is about Rush. In fact, I think Putin was there, too, and they all just kind of had a laugh that Oh, that’s what you’re supposed to say, huh? Even though we all know on the face of it that this is Foer part of our policy of containing Russia in the new Cold War at war. Worse as you’re saying, right, you have to be an idiot to believe something like that and my way. Then you see this subtle judge, the uh, Bushies Junior pointy. She knew full well, Shia goof Orwell that if I was able to present these arguments to the jury and, uh, Zidane Ellsberg was able to send his arguments, the jury, there’s a good chance we have gotten an outright acquittal for all of them. And that would have been a terrible blow against trying to. So, of course, she just not only struck me, she struck dead. Uh, my declarations never got to the jury. I don’t dance. After David didn’t and the Kings Bay plowshares were muscle. You could read the transcript and threatened with the judge. Gotcha. This they began talking about these things, She’d hold them in contempt. Well, now, let me ask you this. What was Can you give us a bit of a summary of the religious freedom argument there? Because that was something that Lizza, Macao Alistair had mentioned that you were more specific. You said they were trying to invoke the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Yeah, there. This was the first time ever the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Ah was adopted by Congress, uh, to make sure that the United States government does not put undue burdens on people Foer, uh, motivated by religious reasons. Uh, and all they wanted to do here was to argue these points, uh, to the jury. That’s what they wanted to argue. And the judge just stripped over that argument to so they were able to get up there and say, Well, I was motivated for religious reasons, but they could not tie into this specific statute that, ah, give special protections. Four people who are motivated by religious reasons. So that was stripped of them with the experts on that they they were going to bring in a Catholic bishop, since they are all Catholic workers. And, ah, a professor of theology, I believe, from Fordham University, which is Catholic. I wasn’t really involved in that. It was it was a novel defense bill quickly and said he publicly he is He’s going to try to appeal that Hirsi cision so well, we’ll have to see what happens. Yeah. All right. Well, uh, how long until the sentencing is announced there? I believe the sentencing will be in January. They each are facing 20 years. I suspect the Department of Justice, pursuant to previous practice will go for the max 20 years from all that. And that includes Lizza Macao, Alistair. He was about to turn 80. So effectively, that will be a life sentence for her. They tried to do this to her husband, Phil Baroud Keeghan in his last plowshares action. Do you plowshares out depleted Iranian Paulish airs and the prosecutor there publicly brag that this is gonna be filled. Baroud Guns last Ryan’s gonna put Phil away for the rest of his life. Um, and we started out facing 40 years. Uh, and at the end of a kangaroo court proceeding, his ah ah, trial attorney was my friend Ramzy Clark. Uh, Phil and the others got two years. Um And then he got out and was sent back on another problem. Paulish Aires Action Foer Probation revocation, I think another six months. So he did get out. And then soon thereafter, he you know he was diagnosed with terminal cancer and died, But at least fill Berrigan died at home surrounded by his wife lives and their children and their grandchildren and and your friends and that not rotting away in some federal hello for crimes against the American Empire. And that is what they’re trying to do once, Macao Alistair that, you know, leases Bin, uh, pain in their neck for the last 50 years since the Americans and Macao, Alistair launched their campaign against the Vietnam War. And they want to put Lizza way for the rest of her life and that, and I don’t mean to diminish the significance of any of the others. But But let’s has been at this for over 50 years. Hey, guys. Scott here, I got some books you should read. The War State by Mike Swanson A great history of Early Cold War No Dev No ops, no I t by Hussein Biotic Johnny How to run your computer business like a good libertarian. Oh, yeah, And don’t forget fool’s errand. Time to end the war in Afghanistan by me Hey, y’all, Here’s the thing. Donate $100 to the Scott Horton show and you can get a Q R Code Commodity disc as my gift to you. It’s a one ounce silver disc with a Q R code on the back. You take a picture of with your phone and it gives you the instant spot price and lets you know what that silver that ounce of silver is worth on the market in Federal Reserve notes in real time. It’s the future of currency in the past to commodity discs dot com, or just go to scott horton dot or ge slash Donate. Hey, guys, you know you probably need a new website a lot of people do. What you need to do then is go to expand designs dot com the great Harley Abbott and his team over at expand designs dot com. They’ll hook you up with a great new website for 2019 and in fact, what you really should do his type in expand designs dot com slash scott, and you’ll save $500. And listen, I have to say, I told her this to that. I’ve always known that there is this nun or a group of nuns and priests that do these actions and break into these nuclear weapons facilities in order to protest and bring attention to them. And that’s not exactly the same thing. And I guess there Catholic workers, you know, party background, whatever. It’s not exactly the same thing is just a bunch of I don’t know, eight Ashbury hippies or something like that. It’s a priest and his wife, okay? And then But I and I never knew a lot about it, right? But I’m just time out, like in my childhood. All my life growing up, I knew that these people existed and that they did this and that they went to prison to make this point and that, you know, along the lines. In fact, this was on the anniversary of Martin Luther King’s assassination that they did this action and that it was part of that tradition. I know you. You talked about the discrepancy there. Um, arguably segregation itself was an illegal regime to, uh but anyways, um, I think this stuff is really important is one of the things that got me interested in the subject as a young kid. And I know I’m not alone in that, so I don’t know how much that’s worth, but it’s not nothing, I guess. You know, for all the sacrifice that they put into this, it’s important to understand they’re there. Their slogan is they shall beat their swords and the ploughshares and their spirits into grooming Kochs. And that comes from the Jewish profits. Micah and is there. And so, uh, these, uh, plowshares, uh, many number Catholic but not all of them are motivated by the example of the Jewish profits. If you go back and read your bible and rule they played, and if challenging the king at that time, the emperor’s the Jewish emperors at that time. And, uh, you know, many of these profits were killed or imprisoned. And if you are interested following that up, there are two books day American late and very Ghouta. A Jesuit wrote, Uh, well, he wrote a series of books commentaries on the Jewish province, And then, ah, Rabbi Abraham Heschel, uh, now deceased. But hey opposed the Vietnam War and supported civil rights for African Americans and marched with Dr King and Selma. You know, my my kind of rabbi, and he wrote a book on the Jewish profits to too. If you really want to understand what motivates CIS people, these people, This was Rebekah Hesh als doctoral dissertation. He wrote to get his doctor in theology so you can get these books and they the PowerShares, try to fit what they are doing into this biblical tradition of prophecy. Yeah, well, um, you know it’s funny, cause all these political figures, I’ll pretend to be very religious. Toobin. When it comes down to it, the state ranks far higher than God or his son on their list. No question. Well, that’s right. And Azzam Lizza, Macao, Alistair pointed out. This is a religion of nuclear Hazmi, and it’s an idolatry. Oh, yeah, Cult of power, cult of death, right? So she’s been very eloquent about it for all these years. And, of course, the other Kings, Bay, plowshares and all the other file sharing since, well, they’ve tried to make this point the best they can in these trials. But again, the federal government and federal judges ah, to a great extent have Mosul Baluch and completely shut down their defenses in violation of their rights and due process a lot. Yeah, and I mean, that’s really one of the most outrageous parts of this, right? You know, for a guy who was raised on Matt locked like me, I know that the state’s gonna almost always win. But when the judge and the prosecutors conspired to just strike down every witness that the defense wants to bring, they’re just not even allowed to put on their case at all. That’s the kind of thing that should never happen in America, you know, and especially in a case like this, where the prosecution could afford to simply just be patronizing and insulting as hell, and asked the judge to give them all six months and a nice $10,000 fine and make the point and shame them for jeopardizing our security or some kind of thing and let them go and treat this like a really bad misdemeanor, which is what it really is. And I mean, for them to go to these lengths to prevent even any semblance of a defense. Ah, by these people who are clearly motivated by the highest purpose is Ah, well, it’s sickening. I don’t know. I could ended that a few different ways, but it bothers me. It ain’t right. Well, you’re right, Scott, and that your listeners have to understand they were each facing 20 years. All they wanted were three witnesses. They wanted the bishop, the professor of theology, of the religious defense and then me on the nuclear weapons aspect. Dan could not come because at the end of the day, because of a prior personal commitment. So sometimes in that type of situation, I do double duty. I’ve actually been qualified in court as an expert on U. S. Nuclear targeting doctrines and strategy. So I was fully prepared to do double duty here, and it were all stripped. That was Hey, they handled effect. Ah, the judge of the feds stripped them of all their defensive. So that’s why I said it was Ah, que grew court was a rubber stamp on a railroad. Sure enough, that’s that’s what it turned out to be. Yeah. All right, well, listen, I’ll let you go. Ah, thank you for so much of time here this afternoon on this very important story and all your great efforts. I wish you guys the best on all the appeals and all of this, and I wish I knew something better to say. Just thanks again for taking the time to go through all this so that people can understand, uh, what the clouds shares are all about and that they are acting as they see it as profits in the tradition offthe e of the Jewish Bible. Right? All right, well, thank you again. Everybody that is Francis Boyle, professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law. All right, shall thanks Find me at Libertarian Institute Dot or GE at scott horton dot or ge antiwar dot com and reddit dot com slash scott Horton Show. Oh yeah, and read my book Fool’s Errand Timed and the War in Afghanistan at Fool’s errand dot us.

So, uh, welcome back to the show, Matthew. How are you doing? Good. Good. Scott, how are you? I’m doing great. Happy to have here, So listen, um well, this is kind of a weird way to have the conversation. I was just talking with this Afghan reporter, and, um, he’s there, and he’s the one who knows. Um, and I’m just here. And what the hell do I know? Um, And now you’re, like, split the difference for me a little bit, I guess because you’ve been there. But you’re still just a white guy. American like me. So what do you know to? But anyway, me and him kind of gotten a little bit of Ah, And the thing is, he wanted to make a different point, so he didn’t really didn’t really hash this out all the way. Um but I was saying that listen, instead of bringing the Taliban into Kabul, why not just call timeout where everyone is now? Since the Taliban are really dominant in all of the south and the east, in the predominately Pashtun areas of the country. And since the Tajiks Uzbeki alliance is dominant in the north and the land around Kabul that maybe just kind of called time out there he was more interested in the idea of Kabul and the Taliban working out an agreement and integrating them into the parliamentary government instead, I guess, but the point I’m trying to get to here, actually though, is where he was just saying that I was just I mean, obviously, clearly I was oversimplifying, but he was saying that I was oversimplifying to a fault that to say that to think of that ethnic map of Afghanistan and to reduce the the um, the conflict to that in the way that I did was was so oversimplified as to just be incorrect. And as he started to put it, that they’re non Pashtun in the Taliban and their Pashtuns in the Kabul government, which already know that. And I don’t think that’s necessarily completely contradicts what I was saying. Um, but then again, he is from there. I think he’s a Pashtun and is from there he talked about families from the Nyanga hard province and stuff. So, um, but I’ve talked with you about this quite a bit in the past few years, and you have some real experience in Afghanistan too, And I just wondered, um, you know, if you can, you know, shed some light or some gray area or something on here to make me smarter. Yeah. No, I mean you and I should say I have in the back to Afghanistan in 10 years and primary reason being because Yugo back as, ah civilian without the military, you really can’t get outside of Kabul. Maybe you can get to some of the other government controlled cities, but that’s not really effective And seeing what’s happening there, it’s just just too dangerous to travel. You know, Alps, like war zones. You know where to the south or into the East or what have you, But no, I mean, that was not in my experience, not what I know about it. Certainly there’s been a lot of, ah, internally displaced persons. You know, internal migration in Afghanistan over the last 10 years, as the war has escalated has gotten worse. A lot of people from the South and the East have gone the places like Kabul. Um, you know, So you had that representation of Aounist, a Pashtun Sheehans fleeing from the war zone, going to places that are supposedly safer. Um, but, you know, they’re living in refugee camps or their living in, you know, shanty towns or, you know, in you know what? In previous times, you know, we call ghettos. Basically, um, they’re not, you know that they’re not settling and living in mixed communities. Um, what I saw when I was in Afghanistan, and this seems to hold true and has held true. Um, certainly. Like, as you said, Yeah. There are Pashtuns in the government. There are Pashto tunes. Ah, throughout all society, you know, in different forms. But, you know, you know, my my argument about that is that people it Suhail Ghandi is Pashtun. And and in the Karzai was Pashto, his Pashtun. And, you know, my organ is Hey, you know, Obamas Black. You know, I mean, that doesn’t mean Oh, and there are blacks in the government there. You know, Ben Carson is a is A is on the cabinet, you know? But does that mean that we have equal representation in the United States? Does that mean that black and white households have the same amount of wealth that all of a sudden everything is equal? Because you have a few out liars, Particularly in seeing your positions? Um, you know, in Afghanistan, the other thing too complicated further is Afghanistan. Is, uh, it in its roots, it’s tribal. Ah, lot of that tribal system has been destroyed in the 40 years of war. Especially Taliban. Really. took an axe to the travel system, really decapitated a lot of the travel leadership. And so the tribal system does not exist in a way that you see in other, you know, say Middle Eastern countries, Uh, and how definitive it is or how ah, granite it is in terms of its relationships with one another between tribes. But it’s still there. Um, you know, But that said, um in the South, particularly in the places where the war’s being Foer fought. Hellman Kandaharis Zabul. Um, you know, down along the Pakistan border areas there Ah, where the poppy fields are, it is 98 99% Pashtun. Ah, when I was there, the only pot non Pashtun ts I experienced were, ah, government officials. Ah, the Afghan army and the Afghan police. I know there were efforts to integrate more Pashto tunes into the Afghan army. Mean for years, the U. S. Government always said that, uh, the Pashtun army was representative of the Afghan population, So the Pashtun army was 40 some odd percent Pashtun Rodham Strugar Afghanize was 40% Pashtun. Azzam. But that was never the case. That was a complete lie. Somebody wrote that down and everybody went along with it after, you know, afterwards makes the really the reality was that only about 4% of the Afghan army was Pashtun. Um, where I was, we had six Afghan army battalions. Ah, and only two of the Army battalion commanders could speak Pashto. That the language of the people there. Um um, you know, so it was It was clearly, as we would say, you know, and a Afghan national army really stood for the army of the Northern Alliance. Um, And you had this breakdown between ethnicities. That was very clear. The battle lines were very clear. The Taliban? Yes. There were some non Pashtun in the Taliban, but not many. Um, you know it primarily a Pashtun movement was representative. All Pashtun is no. But it was representative of a substantial portion of the pot. Students who felt that they were being occupied felt that they were fighting to get by but foreign powers by feeling that they were fighting and being oppressed by a central government that was composed of ethnic rivals. Ah, that was Ah, clip. You know, Copt, a Craddick and predatory government. Um, and so yeah, I mean, it’s not so simple. Uh, maybe as we make it out to sometimes when we’re discussing it. But, you know, unless there were major demographic changes in the last 10 years that I’m not aware of, You know, I just don’t see how Pashto Judis have become more representative in in the government, in the army, in the police, Um, and that the war hasn’t been basically kind of, ah, proto ethnic conflict. And the war is very complex. I mean, it’s war. It’s on multiple levels. I mean, So there’s a There’s ah, you know, just as you can say, there’s ethnic differences. You can also describe it as a rural and urban conflict. And this goes back decades as well, you know. So if you’re a Pashtun who lives in the city, Yes, you are probably Mork likely to be on the side of the government forces, then on the side of the insurgency. Um, because you have that rural urban split, and that was the case going back. That was certainly the case, you know, in during the war with the Soviets, you know, and also to prior to that in the period of conflict before the Soviets entered. So yeah, it’s very complex, but, uh, to dismiss it as, uh, there being no ethnic, um, there being no ethnic differences in the conflict or no ethnic divide, I just I haven’t seen any. Yeah, well, I mean, he wasn’t quite saying there’s none of that or anything like that. It was just he was saying. I guess that the exceptions have overridden the rule now that essentially there are enough naan Pashtuns who’ve been brought into the Taliban, and there are enough Pashtuns inside the government that it sort of cancels out that narrative. Yeah, you know, I don’t know. I would Yeah, what I would say about that is certainly, um, over the last 10 years, you have seen splits in and cracks in the foundation that supports the Afghan government. So where Yugo back 10 years? Um, up until that, that first election between Karzai in Abdul Abdula in 2009. Um, you had I felt like you had a pretty cohesive grouping of different warlords, different ah constituencies. Ah, from the north from from the cities that were represented by the Karzai government in 2009 when those elections were so crooked and eso fraudulent. And Abdul Abdula, you know, was lost. You had a lot of cracks appear in that base of support. And over the last 10 years, it’s only gotten worse, you know, I mean again in 2000. Ah, Mobil. Is that the next 1 2014 elections? Between Karzai? I mean, between Ghandi and Abdul Abdula. Ah, you had, uh uh more Ah, divisiveness. Mork cracks Maurin. So I think what you have seen is you have seen groups pull away from the government because they feel like they’re not getting their fair share. They feel like they’re getting left out. The outside thing, too, is that you have had groups during Taliban because they feel the Taliban’s winning. You know, one of the interesting things I found when I was there and I was learning about the various Afghanize army commanders that I was that I was around them with thes bears is that they have been supporting the Soviets. Ah Foer Ah, long time or even some of some of the major Ah ah, some of the major figures, Like say, ah ah uh uh Russia dos doom. You know, the warlord from the north who is now exile, because, you know, he sodomized an opponent with an a k 47 but he was gone. He’s vice president for a little for a while. You know, um, these guys were on the side of the Soviets until the end of the war until about 1987 1988. Right When they saw that, when they saw it was clear what was gonna happen. And then they switched to the side of the mujahideen, and then they knew, need and rebelled. Um, and so I think you may have that as well Where groups are siding with the Taliban and they are not their traditional. Ah, they’re not that it would not be a traditional lines or not. They don’t share the same desires or want to see the same outcomes. But they realize that. Hey, this is the winning side, and I’m gonna side with it now. Yeah, you know, And speaking of which, there was this thing. I tried so hard to get this lady on the show, and I never could reach her. She wrote a thing. That foreign policy. And then for some institute, this giant pdf study of the Taliban. This would have been in, um, I’m gonna say this summer, 2018. And her name is Ashley Jackson. And if she just had spent all of this time down in Taliban country and talked about how, after the drone strike against Mansoor, who was the Taliban leader who had taken over after the announced death of Mullah Omar and 2013 that he was then killed, I Gessen 2015 fireman, right? But then think so, Yeah. So the new guy whose name is really hard to pronounce, um, Haakon Zada against something like that that he essentially got smart and started waging a people’s war. And guess what? He’s from there. So unlike Stanley McChrystal and David Petraeus and their Army and Marines, these guys actually Cannes fight among the people and swim among the fishes, as Mao said, or whatever it is, right. And so instead of destroying everything the Americans had built, they just started co opting everything. And they just started essentially making offers like, Hey, will either kill you or you can join us. And so, you know, police chiefs who were installed by the Kabul government are really answerable to the Taliban, and school teachers who were installed by the Americans and the Kabul government are really answerable to the Taliban. And that’s the structure of the local government. You know that they just essentially usurped and taken over. Now I guess not the provincial capitals. I don’t rule out right. The provincial capitals in Lashkar Gotcha and in Cannes, Dahr city in that kind of thing. But essentially everything else they control in the entire south, in the east of the country. And then part of what she talked about was they’re trying to integrate as many Tajiks and Uzbeks. And I don’t know about Hazaras too. But maybe even some Hazaras too, into the Taliban government. If they if they really want to be the Islamic emirate of Afghanistan and they don’t wanna have to fight the very worst kind of civil war against these factions again, they’re trying to sort of, you know, blackmail M extort them into just joining instead. Um, and it seems like that’s been working really well for them. They’re said to now control about half the country in the daytime. And more than that at night. Yeah, you know, I was it that the New Yorker Dubai, Baluch, Mobil Sonali think that’s his name? That there was a good New Yorker piece. Ah, they came out a few weeks ago on Afghanistan of I thought was very balanced. And it’s in the way he reported on a Taliban. But if it’s that piece I am thinking of, he referenced the same type of thing of the cooperation that various NGOs are experiencing in Taliban controlled territory. I just see the article here. I’ve never seen it. I missed it. Thank you. It’s part of quitting Tair Mandalay. Things get by me now. Yeah, you know, it’s a very good I had about three or four people said that to me, you know? So when that happens, of course, you know, you read it, right? You know, because But it was, um it ah was I thought very balanced. Like I said in its depiction of the Taliban, Um, one of the more fairer portrayals I’ve read of them in American media. Ah, but he does. He makes the point that, as you were saying, Ashleigh Jackson makes that you know, they’ve learned that that there are that this is not the Taliban of the nineties. Uh, I mean, we saw that early on to because, you know, the Taliban were very, say, anti technology in the nineties. But then they quickly embraced cell phones. They quickly embraced using Facebook. You know, they quickly embraced, you know, communicating with the outside world. You know, they are as, ah, strategically, they are much better say, at communications. Then the United States military is in terms of getting their message out, letting people know what they’re doing, you know? Ah, why they’re doing it. Um and you know it. And what I saw of how the Taliban operated in the southeast and and the north I’m sorry. And and in the east, the northeast to a degree as well was that they really all were decentralized in many ways, in terms of how they dealt with the various villages and valleys that they were in. 09 They were still fighting control him. And now they based that they control them. But they were very hands off. They were very decentralized. Um, I remember we went to a village one time and it hadn’t been to that village in in in four years. And we said to them was the last time you saw the Taliban and they said four years ago, when you were last year, you know, they don’t bother us unless you guys show up. Um, and that’s kind of how they understood it. And their fighters were at that point very localised. They didn’t, really. The fighters were fighting for a village or a valley. We could be called the Valley is, um you know, um and then the Taliban that they say, like the military commander for the province. For the Taliban, he would have a Kadre of forces that were, you know, two guys on Ah, you know, 60 or 75 cc motorbike. You know, about a cadre of maybe of 50 or 100 or 150 of them total for the problems. You know, I would expect. And they will kind of go around and help out where they could. And they did deliver money and weapons and explosives, and it also deliver beatings. You know, um, if need be. But that also time to was known Ayn was when women will all Moammar came out with. Kind of like a guideline for his forces. You know, they were not to prey on the villagers. They were not Thio. No extra Doocy. Extrajudicial. Ah, you know. Ah, punishments. Um they were to be fair, they were to be, like, basically good stewards of governance, And that has extended in various ways throughout the Taliban leadership. Um, and now culminating, like you said. And as they have to, because if they want to, uh, rule Afghanistan, they have to be able to govern. Um, so this is kind of a trial period. Uh, the other thing, too, is that they’re that they’re trying or attempting to show that they are no worse than the government is, um, that they are, Ah, that that the government is not a better option for the people than the Taliban are. So then extend. And they’re basically, uh, applying all these counterinsurgency principles that Petraeus and McChrystal and and you know, Mattis, everybody thinks mad Dog Mattis is not counterinsurgency. But, you know, Jim Mattis was the guy who co authored a counterinsurgency manual with David Petraeus. You know these guys much that right, you know. So But you know these ideas of providing an alternative to the people rather than just being dudes with guns. Ah, and and so, you know, you see that because of the Afghan government is, you know, really has not done much of anything for the the kind there’s no economy to speak of. Ah, the schools. I mean, there was just, ah, Special Inspector General for Afghanistan reconstruction report. Uh, you know, that came out. Half the schools they visited don’t have enough chairs or desks or books or facilities, and a lot of them have holes in the roof and things like that, and those were the ones that has visited. And they probably only visited the ones that they could actually find because, you know, there’s a big report a couple of years ago that a lot of the schools that they said that were built were not built at all. You know, along with the health centers, you know, the Afghan government really hasn’t delivered much to the Afghan people. Uh, now, now, certainly the Afghan people are come are in their 40 semi Geert of war, so there’s really, you know, there’s no infrastructure to speak of, but the Afghan government and there’s been such a flight of, like human capital that it’s really hard to develop and progress. And when you’ve got a war going on, how do you do that anyway? But you know them. For Afghan women, the reality of Stark, you know, Is it better in ah than under Taliban rule or under the rules of the warlords before the Taliban? Yes. Is it is it is. It is a good No. I mean, uh, the numbers for Afghan women are, you know, 80% of suicides in Afghanistan or by women. Ah, third of Afghan women or child brides, you know? I mean, the that’s that’s happening in the Afghan government controlled areas, you know, so right. I mean, so yeah. And Jones said that the number one priority of the Afghan police by far they spend more time capturing run away women and girls than any other thing. Yes, that’s the government that USA has put in power there. You know that, Hirsi Correct. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and there’s been there’s been various, like, really egregious, you know, examples of, you know Ah ah, you know, Afghanize laws that have passed that allow men to beat their wives. They don’t submit to them if they don’t provide sex to them. You know, I mean all kinds of things like that that are just does this notion that there is a clear difference between the Afghan government and the Taliban in terms of how, when it comes to women is just not simply true, Well, made on in a horrible, six cynical way that goes to show that actually the Taliban could just be integrated into this government without a further civil war. And back to my previous guest, his point of view. I mean, he just thought my whole autonomy and federalism kind of thing was all wet and was saying that in fact, I brought up Googled Ayn heck mature and he was saying, Heck matures A great example of how to do this. You make a peace deal. And this guy ran a suicide bomber militia, the Hezb e Islami insurgent group allied with the Taliban and the Haqqanis for years against the US here and then eventually they just made him a sweet enough deal that he and maybe just got old enough. Nor is Reddick enough. He decided to come in, and he’s my guest that he disarmed his militia. He’s not a threat, Doku threat or anything like that, as I at least one time feared, Um, and that what he’s really doing is running for president and losing. And he’s being brought down a peg by being integrated into the government. He is being faced with the reality that nobody likes him. Nobody supports him, and he doesn’t have any real natural powers. And now he’s reduced to a clown making ridiculous statements on TV. And isn’t that what we want to see from all of these guys? If they’re gonna whatever violence they’re going to commit, by all means, channel it through the Parliament first and and then at least you don’t have to have a civil war. You just have the typical war of all governments against their populations, you know? But I wouldn’t their own different factions, which are much deadlier. Usually, yeah, I wouldn’t count him out. I mean, I would not be very cautious with him, you know? I mean, he’s just a guy who’s been around for a very long time. Um, used to be CIA is family. Exactly. Exactly. He is. You know, I mean, this guy is gonna do what is best. And he’s very cunning. Very. And ain’t you know, when he came into us and his people came in tow us in 09 wanting to strike a deal, you know? Uh, yeah, that was one of many I when I was an angle horror. That was one of the things I dealt with and then being told by our embassy, you know? Stay out of it. We’re not talking to them. This is, you know, this is this is reconciliation is an Afghan. Ah, is an Afghan on Lee policy, which was absurd because, you know, you’re backing a central government. Um, you’re supporting them. You’re propping them up. You’re keeping them power. You’re making them rich. Why are they gonna reconcile with their enemies? You know, I mean, it just absolutely absurd. But that was, you know, And that’s one of the reasons why I ended up quitting or what not was there was no desire for any type of deal or peace in 09 and 10 but yeah, that this this idea that we could have disarmed. Ah, his his people. And have these taken that part of the war away. They were always, you know, And that the three elements of the insurgency along with the Haqqanis and them with the Quetta Shura Taliban, um, they were always, uh his people had monitors. People were always the kind of the smallest or the weaker store, the most in the most intricate, inconsequential Ah, you know, book that was compared to the Connie’s into quite a sure, though, you know, they were still consequential in terms of they were killing lots of Afghan army and Afghan police and the lots of Americans and NATO forces, and they were controlling areas. We’re doing the best they could. Um, so but yeah, being the idea that that is basically what you want to have happen is get these guys in and get them into a political process where they feel they can at least take part fairly or these have a shot at some power sharing. Um, I don’t know where the Taliban are gonna say about democracy. I mean, they tend to be opposed to that. You know it, You know you are I should know students they tend to be, but they seem toe have always been opposed to it. But if it’s a deal, that’s good enough for them. Um I mean and it goes back to this house and strains that don’t Baluch stinks. What? When I when I would deal with these guys when they’re people, will come in both in the east. And when I was in the South Ah, there interlocutors were coming. And I’m sure some of those guys were actually Taliban themselves and speak to us. They would say, You know, over and over again. Look, we’re tired of fighting. Our fathers fought, our grandfathers fought. Our sons are now fighting. We don’t want to see our grandson’s fight. We want to see this over. But we’re not going to surrender, you know? And because that was always the Americans, that was always our Our thing to them was basically surrender. Our pre conditions were embraced. The Constitution. Ah, except, ah, women’s rights or no denounce Al Qaeda. I’m sorry and put down your weapons. So basically surrender, you know, especially the put down your weapons part. That’s basically surrender. And they weren’t gonna do that. But they wanted to talk. They wanted to. They wanted to end it because this has been going on since the seventies, you know? I mean, I see this all the time. You know, I was born in 1973. That’s the year the King list opposed. This has been going on since that, You know, at the time the Soviets come in at, you know, as many as 100,000 Afghans have already been killed in the fighting. You know, um, this is this is something that’s been going on for so long that, um, they wanted the Taliban want, and but they don’t want to surrender, and they don’t want to. And just like anyone, they don’t want to give up on the sacrifices they’ve already made. And they feel that they’re winning. You know, I think that was one of the points that you made, Scott. I made lots of people made. Ah, you know, when Obama was escalating, this war was that. Look, if you escalate the war and it doesn’t work, then what? You know, you could always Nagorno You can always come back the killing tomorrow or the next day or next week or next month or next year, you know. But if you escalate the war now, and it doesn’t work. Then what are you gonna d’oh The other side is now winning. And why do you expect them to then go along with what you want? You know, um, and they were winning. It known Ayn. Anyway, that’s what Stanley McChrystal said, you know? So this whole thing has been just, you know, devoid of any intellectual thought or reasoning or oh, are you know at all on the United States part, Hold on just one second, be right back. So you’re constantly buying things from amazon dot com Monde. That makes sense. They bring it right to your house. So what you do, though, is click through from the Link in the right hand margin at Scott Horton dot or GE, and I’ll get a little bit of a kickback from Amazon’s into the sale. Won’t cost your thing nice. Little way to help support this show again. That’s right there in the margin at Scott Horton dot or GE, announcing the latest book to be published by the Libertarian Institute coming to Palestine by our heroic executive editor Sheldon Richman. Incoming to Palestine, Richmond tells the truth about the creation of Israel, the Palestinian Nakba, or catastrophe, and the Israelis continued oppression of the Palestinians since that time. He also tells the stories of anti Zionist Orthodox and Reform Jews who opposed the creation of Israel and those who fight for the Palestinians. Freedom Today. Reed Coming to Palestine by Sheldon Richman Available at Libertarian Institute dot or GE and amazon dot com. Hey, guys, you got to check out the bumper sticker dot com. You play in a band, you need stickers. Yugo the bumper sticker dot com. Maybe have a business and you need stickers. Yugo to the bumper sticker dot com They’ll take care of all this stuff. I created the company back, I don’t know. A generation ago, I sold it to Rick McGinnis, and he’s done a great job with the company ever since they got what you needed over there at the bumper sticker dot com. Well, and so what about this recent election? I mean, uh, is a sure bet that this government can even stand Taliban notwithstanding, if Ghani and Abdullah cannot decide who’s gonna be who I mean, in 2014 they were trying to kill each other. Yeah, yeah, John Kerry had a fly there right and make this, you know, we’re so big on Ah, Afghanistan, the rule of law in Afghanistan. It’s a constitutional government. And look, it’s a democracy and the elections are just incredibly fraudulent. One after the other. And it was so bad in 2014 that Secretary of State John Kerry had a fly there and create this compromise that created an extra constitutional position Foer Abdul Abdula to fill as a chief executive officer of the government. And then they kind of split, Ah, positions. You know, Minh Certainly the Afghan government, you know, a lot like the United States government say, like in the 19th century, where patronage was a huge factor, right where the, you know, you’re the president was was assigning who was going to be the postmasters, you know, throughout the country, right, Yahia? That’s the same way with the Afghan government. You know, all the positions below President within the executive are appointed by the president all the way down to the lowest cop on the beat, all the way down to the lowest, you know, sanitation worker or whoever in the smallest town in Afghanistan is in a direct line to the president of Afghanistan. You know, in terms of who appoints who, then how their patterns selected. And so, uh, you know, the government essentially split along those lines, so nothing was gonna be accomplished anyway. And they hate each other. They don’t work together. Ghandi has a reputation for being stubborn. Thickheaded anyway, um, and, um but yeah. I mean, this thing is, if the election was pushed back, uh, you know, from the spring toe to ah, you know, a couple of months ago and then the election results were supposed to have come out in October, and now they’ve been pushed back to this month, and I don’t even know if I’ve seen an actual date for when the results are supposed to be announced. Um, I I went back and looked, and all I found was just seeing things saying the results will be announced in November. So uh huh. Maybe I just missed it, but I couldn’t even find a date where they said the results were gonna be allowed. Announced. Yeah, I saw that it was gonna be later this month, I guess, But And of course, both of them claiming victory immediately And just like in the last two elections, there’s not even talking about turn out in the countryside, you know? I mean, the only reason that we don’t know the Onley rial, you know, at least Western Good report about what was happening out in the countryside in 2014. Was Gopal and a Kagans saying, There’s nothing going on out there, man. There’s no election. What election? Yeah, Didn’t happen at all. I mean, if out in the countryside exactly. If the people out there even knew about the elections, they just probably they would have felt that this doesn’t apply to me, that this doesn’t represent me. It doesn’t apply to me going on the opals reporting. He quotes some guys sing an election. Why did the guy die or something? They don’t know that. Why would you have an election? I thought we had a police chief. He’s That’s a that’s a lifetime appointment, is it not? You know, Yeah, I mean that that’s the way it was. I mean, in some ways, to you know, you can look at it with the elections in 09 and four king in the various parliamentary elections in this last election had I think total turnout was was less than 25% including the cities. You know that people know that the people realize that what it’s inconsequential, that the government is corrupt. It it’s not just corrupt, its predatory, that there is no ah, there’s this the report by the Bureau Investigative journalism just a couple days ago about all the different property that various government official zone and Dubai, you know. Ah, you know all these All these families of the that are part of the government in Afghanistan own, you know, large amounts of property. And Dubai, you know, these thes massive apartments or condos within these skyscrapers and stuff which, you know, if that was done legitimately, would not be a problem. But, you know, it’s not being done legitimately. We know clearly that that is money that most likely came from the United States, or maybe Japan or Germany or Briton. But you know what again is just just Ah, you know, Jason ditz at antiwar dot com. And if if anyone’s listening who was really interested in these issues and you don’t subscribe to the anti war dot com, you know daily feed. You know you’re missing out because that’s how I learn. Everything is through, you know, anti war in Jason ditz, you know, And but yet he reported that they just get a new estimate for how much the United States has spent on reconstruction and development and police in schools and in all those things and and and combating opium is 132 billion or 138 billion or something like that since 2001. And about 10 billion of that has been against the opium trade or against the drug trade. And, you know, we’ve seen how well that’s applied. But, you know, I mean, for the people who were in Afghanistan, they know all that money’s being spent, you know? They’re not seeing it. They know the government is, and they’ve never had a government that has worked for them. They’ve ever had. A government has represented them. They don’t have the government has protected them unless it’s protecting Ah, constituency that you’re a part of Monde. So I think was gonna happen. These elections is that these various war the words who make up the constituency constituency of of Afghanistan of the Afghan government. Um, these warlords in the north, you know, and and then some of the strong men in the East say, like, Kolache grocers, I or whoever you know, they have to make a decision. What they’re gonna do when this crisis comes full force of who won the election, you know, who are they support? And is it a and and will that then Constitutent, you know, Ah, Riel challenge to the Afghan government. Will the Afghan government, you said that’s has got you could be able to stay alive, will be even able to stay afloat. And I think that’s that’s right. Now, even though the Taliban are doing so well militarily, you know, as you said, they controlled more than 60% of the countryside or the land. You know, um, that I think that’s gonna be the real crisis of the next few months. Is will this government be able to stand? Um, if it has a challenge from within from its own constituency over who has the right to to lead it. And ah, Ghandi has certainly done himself no favors in terms of of, uh, making his coalition stronger. Uh, just, uh just in the way he is governed in the last five years. Yeah, well, and, you know, in this cigar report, that’s s I G A R. It’s the special inspector general for Afghanistan reconstruction, and whoever at their office added me to their list a few years ago. Thanks, guys. I’m glad to know you’re Listen, um, Yemen. They say here that, you know, at its current rate of collection, revenue would fall short of the government stated target by 19.3 billion Afghan dollars, which is still 300,000,250 million. Um, but that’s, you know, their stated target then is still so far short of their budget, which we all know Xasan comes from us. And you know what? Like, I hate to make this personal cause it’s really not, you know, it’s a matter of principle, but in this case, I actually have the IRS trying to murder me right now, and I just It makes me feel so good to know that all the money they’ve ever extorted from me just went to pay for what? Like Wone tire on the limousine of some child rapist Afghan warlord When he drives you know, back and forth from his private jet to his mansion in Doha Cutter that this is where my man goes. This is where there are people in this audience who, you know, make riel money, own their own businesses, real successes in life and pay serious income taxes. This is where your money is going. This is where the money’s going. Just to pay the worst people in the world. You would have a better You would have better return for your money if you walk to your nearest lake or pond a river or ocean. Just dump that money in the water. Absolutely in like it would mean because maybe it would have turned into fish food Or, you know, constituted like some artificial barrier or something like that. Their proteins and nutrients and ink something. I mean, it would have been better. I mean, it is just Bin I mean, that money it has not and they, you know, and the thing about it too, it just goes along with the lies of the government. Why anyone believes anything that ever comes out of this government, you know? And now we’re seeing you know, not to jump totally jumps Baltics. But this save, like with the, uh, the impeachment hearings that are going on right now. Ah, guy like Bill Taylor. I knew him in Iraq and, 04 or five. I mean, I wouldn’t trust anything, he said, regardless of what he was saying. If what he said was Pro Trump, I wouldn’t trust it. If what he was saying was Anti Trump, I wouldn’t trust it. These are the kinds of people who have stood in front of the American public for decades now and said that each year the war is going well, this plan is gonna work. These people were working with or good people. When the exactly as you said Scott, they turn out to be child rapists. Uh, you know that the money is being well spent? Well, well taken care of that. You know, millions of Afghan children are going to school, you know, which turns out to be a lie. You know, I mean, like, on and on and on, You know, we we’ve ah, my favorites. That was in U S. A. I d you know, our development organization within the United States government, The agency for international development. Um, you know, I mean, for years they kept, they would they would say, Ah, that the life expectancy for Afghans have got has gone up 20 years or so or whatever, and it was complete B s. They literally had no data to support what they were saying, you know? I mean, and but they will keep saying it. And an administrator after administrator would say that in front of Congress Congress people were repeated. The secretary of state would say it, you know the president, United States would allude to it, and it was completely fabricated, completely made up. It was a why, you know, And if they all went along with it, it let alone the larger picture of that. Our young men and women are over there being killed, being named, coming home with, like, incredible cycle. Wait a second. I’m in on that previous point about life expectancy and all that, even if there’s a kernel of truth in that look at the actual situation. The American occupation began just as a massive famine was ending, which was, of course, part of the Civil War that was going on at the time. But It was also a major drought had come and people were dying by the thousands at that time. So it was a you know, of course, there’s been an improvement of the standard of living. It would have been probably an improvement if the Russians had come back, for God’s sake, at that point, you know, actually, I got into an argument with, uh because the Atlantic magazine Khyber printed it, and I sent them. You know, everything about this, you know, the U S i. D points to a study that was done, and six of the people of the six people in the study, three of them resigned in protest because the study was published because it was that had been done sewing correctly, you know? I mean, the study they put it was crazy, But what? I went back and was pointing loss information to the Atlantic. Ah, and of course, they have, like, any of these places. The New York Times opposed none of these people. Vanity fair, whoever they never they never issue a correction. They never report their own mistakes. They never want to contradict. You know, it’s it’s sickening, but, uh, actually, the period of time in the last 100 years when life expectancy actually went up for the Afghans was during the time the Soviet Union was in Afghanistan that seven million people they killed exact. That’s exactly what I say, and they killed a 1,000,000 people. But still, life expectancy somehow went up during that time, and that’s sounding like fudge numbers to me. Two minutes. But these But these at least with the numbers that are being reported by all the various world institutions, right? The World Bank, the U S. D. A. They right? So I mean, at least it was. This is what everyone had settled. See, A said that about the eighties under the Soviets, and that’s at least against interest. That sounds more like an admission on there. That’s exactly right. Inhofe, Hutu. I think I was like the World Bank is Well, Wone was another one where I was getting information from on this, and if they were saying the Communist Soviet Union had actually done you know it and whether or not that’s true, But the thing is that for for decades, and as you said folks who are listening to this, I mean they’re they’re tax money, at the very least, let alone families and friends who are going over there and, you know, being hurt and killed and then killing themselves a month number of people that we’ve killed them, who we’ve destroyed, the societies were destroyed. We destroyed. You know, you’re writing a book about this. We’ve destroyed how many countries in the last two decades, Scott, You know, I mean, like, it’s, uh and they keep going along with it. They keep, they keep, they keep getting away with it. Um, and then they get loud it as, uh, these various people, whether it’s Bill Taylor or, you know, you turn on CNN and hey, there’s there’s John Brennan or or Jim Clapper. You know, these guys who continually perjured themselves to Congress or Brendan’s case spied on Congress. And, ah, the American people are okay with oh, our Amash insane American people. But the American media is okay with continuing to put these people forward as exemplars of ah of dignified public service. And nothing could be farther from the truth. Yeah, boy. Especially clapper. You know, they always say Well, he perjured himself about the n s a spying on Americans, which for some reason, nobody cares about or something. They go well, yeah, that’s pretty bad. You know what he also perjured himself about with Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction when he was in charge of the satellite reconnaissance office and was saying, Oh, yeah, see that, You know, trough right there for goats to drink out of or whatever. Yeah, that’s where they send the anthrax down there when you know some garbage and then also try to cover up for his life with another lie. Vladimir Putin helped Saddam Hussein move all his chemical weapons to Syria. I mean, this guy should have been hanging by the end of 2000 and three long before he had a chance to perjure himself about the N S A. Or about Trump’s supposed ties to Vladimir Putin. Yeah, but he ended up being, you know, director of national Intelligence instead, you know, um, under under a Democratic president, you know, next week there is a big event in Washington D. C. Being held by Bring our troops home dot us and I was wondering if you are going to be involved in that at all. You know. You know what? I am glad you brought it up because I was supposed to be in California next week, and that is not happening. And Dan had gotten in touch with me, you know? I heard him on the I heard him on your show, and I had seen his op Ed and Danny McKnight is his name. And that Scott said bring our troops home is the organization. He’s a Afghan war veteran. Um, and yeah, I thought he was absolutely terrific, and he sent me an email, and I didn’t see it for, like, three weeks. Of course. Right. You know, for whatever reason, I skipped over it. I get a lot of this like you do, right. You get a lot of these e mails, and I think the subject line was like, bring our troops home. So I thought it was just from one of the various different peace groups or whoever that 70 emails all the time. So, you know. And then as I was clearing out, I realized my 1,000,000 box I realized Oh, shoot. This is an actual email. And so yeah, he had asked me to take part, and I had differ but declined because I was gonna be in California. But, you know, I’m glad you reminded me, because maybe I’ll try and get up there next week. At least attend it. Ah, but I think what he is doing is so important, and particularly to get members of Congress Ah, in the room and get them on the spot about what’s going on with this. You know, what he had said about talking with his senator was the same thing I heard over and over again. Half heard in Congress for the last decade with. Well, Matt, you know, I I hear what you’re saying, and I agree with you. But this is not the political room for me to do this or, you know, or, you know, or they say they agree with you and then they go out and they say something completely different. You know, I had a very interesting conversation about this with an agreement. Wone time was Michael Steele, who was the old, uh who, you know, 78 years ago, was the chair of the Republican National Committee and, ah, steel Tool. And he was always putting his foot in his mouth. he He wasn’t that I don’t think a very good share for that party. Um, you know, But ah, not that any of them. I mean, yeah, I ship. That’s good. That’s not go down that route about the Republican Party, but, uh but they, um, Steele said that the biggest what he ever the most er he ever got cold by members of Congress about was everything was this summer of 11 he said, Basically, look, Obama’s right. We need to be getting out of Afghanistan. And he said he told me he had, you know, 10 or 12 Congre House members and 45 senators call him Republicans, Call him and say, Hey, you’re right But you can’t say that, you know, and and that’s been the reality of our politics for the last two decades, with these wars where the Democrats were fine to be against the Iraq war as long as Bush was in office. But as soon as he left office and there is no political, there’s nothing political, no political capital, no no votes to gain from it, no demonizing of the opposition, the game for it. You know, the war’s became something that you know, occasionally it pops up. They passed this this resolution, Um ah t Force Trump to stop taking part in the war in Yemen. But as I heard you discuss on the, uh, one of your shows with someone they chose Thio go the route where Trump was able to veto. You know that that with the War Powers Act, you’re able to ah, you know, have a resolution that goes for that. The president can’t veto that. Basically, uh, you know, you know, the money going to the military stops and the military by law has to stop what they’re doing. But the democratic leadership, when they went forward with this resolution on the War Powers Act for Yemen, chose to give the president and out, you know, um you know, So it I think what Dan is doing with Dem McKnight is doing with his bring our troops home campaign, you know, is really it Wone it’s overdue. Ah, and I think as as you said in my mind, the left, you know, and I’m part of groups like Veterans for Peace and an about face which used to be Iraq veterans against the war. But we’re all left us. You know, we’re like base where me Most of us are socialists or whatever, you know. And we’re not going to get the support from the American public that a conservative group is going to get that a group of just regular guys who are yet now business owners or whatever they’re doing are going to get in particularly dance, going about it by trying to put members of Congress on the spot about it. In terms of what their constitutional duty is as well as their duty to the people. I I think what he is doing is really ah, really admirable. And yeah, I’m gonna now that you say and I’m glad you reminded me of it. I’ll try and get up there next week. Yeah, that’d be great. So a couple of things. I mean, first of all, you really need to read that Rothbardian sent you, man. But second, um, you know? Yeah, Mises argumentative. It makes it a better for you. I’m a libertarian socialist. Oh, I’m against Yeah, evidence that one of them Anarcho leftists. I’ll settle. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, So here’s the deal is and this is a big problem. I mean, it’s a bigger problem than it should be. Maybe, but it is Wone, right? Is that essentially you’ve seeded away all of your tough guy macho Afghanize Iraq war vet status that you had because now you’re liberal, which to a right winger means now you’re somewhat utopian Peace neck or now you’re a cry baby are now something you know. But as you’re saying, it’s the right wing veterans that you know, carry all of the, you know, that have the ability essentially to change the real conversation here. And that means broadly in the public trying to get the point across that Hey, the the rank and file Republican voters of America, those tea party types out there. They are really sick and tired of this, Not they like killing Muslims, but they’re sick and tired of seeing their nephews get killed over some Muslims. That’s that narrative in the popular imagination is what has to change more than any other thing. And then when it comes to dealing with the congressman, that’s the way it has to be approached. Is that look you say that I’m right, but you can’t say that. Well, Let me tell you something. You have to say that because I know you’re gonna anger your donors. But if you don’t say it, you’re gonna anger your voters. And this is one where you’re going tohave to choose the mass of the rank and file out there over the money bags. Because, you know, you can try to bribe us all you want, but you need the turnout toe win the election. And when it’s, you know, conservative as you say soldiers making this case to thes congressman, at least they’re believable when they put it that way. And so, if you’re a Republican Congressman, how do you get How could anyone possibly change your mind about this, right? They’d have to be a conservative voting war veteran who says that he represents a lot more just like him, and that this is what they absolutely demand and will not settle for less than so. I mean, no offense, but being a socialist in this case, you might as well wear tie dye and grow your hair out all along. Start taking puberty, blockers or whatever, because you’ve just given away your whole status as a war veteran to say that this is stuff has got to stop. And by the way, there are plenty of people preaching socialism in America that they don’t really need you on the margin for that. We need you for this. Yeah. You know, I I agree That that is Ah, um that is that is exactly Ah ah, the case with you know, And you could say that on the right, Um, if we could get more people who are doing primary challenges, uh, coming from that, um, you know, I mean, the tea party was very successful, you know, But the tea party had that nationalist, uh, you know, kind of ah, proto patriotic. You know, back to the room. You know, back to the roots of the revolution type of thing where, um they didn’t embrace, uh, the the dangers of the standing army, right? Actually, no Yugo back. No, this was like the Bolton esque perversion of the Ron Paulian tea party movement. Right? But this is the thing about this is the entire point, right? This is the key to what we’re talking about here. The populist right. In other words, Republican voters who are not members of country clubs, but who do vote Republican for mostly cultural reasons More than any other thing that these people, either they really like explosions and kick and Muslim but or they’re sick and tired of it. And the answer is, it’s both. But the but the real thing is, is which gets emphasized, which is the narrative in the popular imagination that dominates. And it needs to be that we were having fun. But now we’re not anymore. And we really are tired of it, you know? Yeah. And there’s, you know, and that there was Ah, I can’t remember. I think it is. M i t Ah, you know, I can’t remember who did. The studies of of the, uh, Ennis has been spoken about on your show before. A swell of the turnout in 2016. And that a lot of the lot in a lot of the counties that voted for Trump there was an antiwar vote and bat votes swung. Those counties Foer, Trump and these are like what you’re talking about. These are the communities that have born the brunt of this war, you know? I mean, these are these are these are the families that have had, ah, cousins or nephews or brothers returns and sisters return home either dead or not the same who have been told what the reality of the war is, you know? Or they have, you know, people down the street who have experienced it. And so I think there is that Bass who would vote for you know, that’s the thing is that, you know, on the left Ah, there’s there’s a lot of anti war sentiment on the left. But when it comes time to choosing who they’re gonna vote for, that anti war sentiment might rank 6th 7th 8th You know, in terms what the priorities. And that’s what that’s what That’s really important. Um, you know, You know, I learned this from Grover Norquist when I he worked with us. Uh uh. You know what I was doing? Like a lot of Afghan study group stuff. And we’re a lot in Congress and and a lot of media work. And we got Norquist on her side because we went in and saw him. And you know Grover Norquist. If you’re not familiar with them, big anti tax, anti government kind of guy have been very involved with the Reagan. Ah, with Reagan, his politics and eighties and such. And, uh, but Norquist. We got him involved because when said to him and this was like, 2010 we said, Do you know how much money the Afghan war is gonna cost this year? And he said no. And we said about $120 billion he fell out of his chair, you know, I mean, so, um, but he told me the story where in the eighties, the, uh, the issue of prayer in school was off the charts in terms of how it pulled, you know, 70 80% of all Americans were in favor of prayer in school. You know, Kid wants to pray at school that, um you know, and they ran candidates, Republicans ran candidates on that issue and then got killed, because when it comes down to it, who’s gonna go out and vote Foer that not your voting? Because, you know, you’re because your cousin lost his job, you know? And you know I mean, because, you know, you’re voting on the economy, growing taxes. You’re voting out. You know, now that you have your your morning on health care. You’re voting on whatever it is you’re voting on. It’s those things that are impacting you and, you know, like it or not, this war doesn’t impact most people, even though God, it’s close to, what 60% of your income taxes, they’re now going to the $1.2 trillion war machine. I mean, that thing, it’s gotta be explained. They got to be lead. They’ve got to be shown that actually, this is the root of everything wrong around here. It’s the root of all the problems in our economy. It’s the root of all the division, much of the division in our society. Andrei is at the root of the police state and the that’s right, you know, increasing lawlessness of our government under all administrations and all of these things. The empire is the republic killer, far more than democracy. It’s the empire that is destroying what’s left of our old rule of law here. And the thing is that, you know, you’re right, that, um, it doesn’t rank on the list of priorities. But if the connection can be made and if it’s conservative, bring them home, bring our troops home dot us types. War veterans, especially leading it. And if, as Trump noticed at his Minnesota rally recently that his voters started chanting Bring them home and they sounded like they meant it, then you know that really could make it, you know. And if Tulsi Gabbert could do any better in getting her narrative across in make foreign policy part of the argument of in the next year in this campaign, maybe by Election Day it really will matter that, like, who do you trust to bring the troops home and let that be what they fight about? You know, Yukos, The answer is neither fry whoever’s running. But yeah, I’m exactly that. Well, I mean, like, you know, and how much is like, say, say, Sanders. Actually, I I have no faith and warn being good on this, even though she is, you know, she came out when? Where she’s gonna take a lot of defense budget to help pay for Medicare. For all that. And I’m sorry. I just realized how late I am. I’m so sorry. I gotta go. Yeah, but you know what? Let’s talk more and soon. Yeah, absolutely, Man, I appreciate Scott you have a good one? Absolutely. You, too. That’s the great Matthew Ho. He really tried to stop. He did everything he could to try to stop Obama’s Afghan surge. Heroic efforts, Um and, uh, and he’s at the Center for International Policy and thank you very much again for your time, Matthew Appreciate. But you bet. All right, Shell. Thanks. Find me at Libertarian Institute Dot or GE at scott horton dot or ge antiwar dot com and reddit dot com slash scott Horton Show. Oh yeah, and read my book Fool’s Errand Timed and the War in Afghanistan at Fool’s errand dot us.