34 thoughts on “Worshipping Woodrow Wilson

  1. Paul

    Greenspan’s small government, free market libertarianism exposed!

    Thanks a million, Ayn Rand, for setting the greedy free
    The trickle-down theory beloved of Greenspan and his ilk is less a philosophy than a handy excuse for avarice

    Naomi Klein
    Saturday September 29, 2007
    The Guardian

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2179825,00.html

  2. Paul

    Would you right wing fanatics quit calling sane ,humane decency
    communism?!LOL :)

    Klein:”The central message of my book is that we’ve been told that our ideas have been tried and failed but, in fact, it is the opposite. Our ideas work, but they cost. They are very good for economic growth but they really eat into super-profit, and that is why there has been such an aggressive attempt to paint them as failures.
    This idea of co-operatives did not fail – it was never tried. Solidarity never got a chance to enact its real economic programme in Poland before those dreams were betrayed with shock therapy. In Russia there was a very clear choice not to democratically remake the economy, despite the fact that 67 per cent of Russians stated that their preferred means of privatising state companies was to hand them over to the workers as workers’ cooperatives.

    I find it tremendously hopeful to realise that these ideas that we have been told are impractical did not fail. The notion that our ideas are already discredited is the major source of weakness on the left. It is what makes us tentative in key moments. Pulling these lost worlds out of the narrative of our last 35 years shows that what the vast majority of people wanted in South Africa, Poland, Russia and China did not fail, but was crushed. It was crushed by military tanks and crushed by think tanks.”

    From this interview
    http://www.zmag.org/content/show…10& ItemID=13908

  3. Scott Post author

    If you’re not a commie, how come you keep blaming libertarianism for the largest government in the history of the world? I can’t figure why someone who isn’t a commie would always try so hard to smear libertarianism and laissez faire. And if you’re not a commie, why is it that you post ridiculous state-worshiping propaganda like the above? Socialism really does work great! At the fall of the Soviet Union and Chinese communism they were about to make the Good kind of communism until the darn meanie capitalists ruined their beautiful dream!

    Fact is, it doesn’t work and stealing is wrong.

    “super-profit” (noun) 1: Your money that a commie wants to steal from you.

  4. Paul

    Super profit: When the CEO makes 47 zillion times for than the laborers who actually create the product and in reality could create the product without the CEO.

    “In Russia there was a very clear choice (by greedy capitalist “mafia”kleptocrats)not to democratically remake the economy, despite the fact that( 67 per cent of Russians stated that their preferred means of privatising state companies was to hand them over to the workers as workers’ cooperatives. )

    They (the russian people)wanted private ownership. They did not want the state to own it! Where in the hell did you get that from?!!!

    The people who agree with you are the free market gangster thugs who now run the Russian “Kleptocracy.” Dude, Lay off the dope smoking for awhile. :)

    Fact is does work, and crushing the will of the majority of people is wrong..
    “Our ideas work, but they cost. They are VERY good for economic growth but they really eat into super-profit.”
    ” they did not fail, but were crushed. It was crushed by military tanks and crushed by think tanks.”

  5. Paul

    Seriously Scott, If you think Zinn and Naomi Klein have anything in common with Thuggish strongmen like Stalin or Brezhnev and Yeltsin you may need a break. Those kinds of people(Stalin) aren’t “humane, left wing, “bleeding hearts” like
    Klein or Zinn or Chomsky. Nor are they “socialists”,They are power mad dominators who took over the state apparatus. And you still miss the point that the cooperatives were not to be state owned but PRIVATELY owned! That was what their democratically consensual desire was.Don’t you know anything about anarcho-syndicalism?

    “In Russia there was a very clear choice (by greedy capitalist “mafia”kleptocrats)not to democratically remake the economy, despite the fact that( 67 per cent of Russians stated that their preferred means of privatising state companies was to hand them over to the workers as workers’ cooperatives. )

    They (the russian people)wanted private ownership. They did not want the state to own it!

    Never Try to argue with a dope smokin’, libertarian Texan!The facts don’t matter. :)

  6. Paul

    Seriously Scott, If you think Zinn and Naomi Klein have anything in common with Thuggish strongmen like Stalin or Brezhnev and Yeltsin you may need a break. Those kinds of people(Stalin) aren’t “humane, left wing, “bleeding hearts” like
    Klein or Zinn or Chomsky. Nor are they “socialists”,They are power mad dominators who took over the state apparatus. And you still miss the point that the cooperatives were not to be state owned but PRIVATELY owned! That was what their democratically consensual desire was.Don’t you know anything about anarcho-syndicalism?

    “In Russia there was a very clear choice (by greedy capitalist “mafia”kleptocrats)not to democratically remake the economy, despite the fact that( 67 per cent of Russians stated that their preferred means of privatising state companies was to hand them over to the workers as workers’ cooperatives. )

    They (the russian people)wanted private ownership. They did not want the state to own it!

    Never Try to argue with a dope smokin’, libertarian Texan!The facts don’t matter. :)

  7. Scott Post author

    Super profit: When the CEO makes 47 zillion times for than the laborers who actually create the product and in reality could create the product without the CEO.

    —The CEO market is highly competitive.

    “In Russia there was a very clear choice (by greedy capitalist “mafia”kleptocrats)not to democratically remake the economy, despite the fact that( 67 per cent of Russians stated that their preferred means of privatising state companies was to hand them over to the workers as workers’ cooperatives. )

    They (the russian people)wanted private ownership. They did not want the state to own it! Where in the hell did you get that from?!!!

    —”Democratically remake the economy.”

    The people who agree with you are the free market gangster thugs who now run the Russian “Kleptocracy.” Dude, Lay off the dope smoking for awhile. :)

    —”Your denial is beneath you, and thanks to the use of hallucinogenics, I see through you.” -Bill Hicks

    –Yes, a bunch of KGB thugs running shit with the backing of the Kremlin is libertarianism. If you just keep insisting it’s so, it will be so.

    –The people who agree with you are all voting for Hillary Clinton.

    Fact is does work, and crushing the will of the majority of people is wrong..
    “Our ideas work, but they cost. They are VERY good for economic growth but they really eat into super-profit.”
    ” they did not fail, but were crushed. It was crushed by military tanks and crushed by think tanks.”

    –No, it doesn’t work, and the will of the majority can go and die. It and they have no claim on my life at all.

  8. Scott Post author

    –Oh yeah, and the people who agree with you all voted for Woodrow Wilson in 1912 and 16 too.

    –That is, they are the ones who created this empire you so wrongly characterize as libertarian.

  9. Paul

    Scott, you know Wilson (nor Hillary, Bush , or Paul for that matter!)would never want to allow the means of production to be PRIVATELY OWNED BY THE WORKERS themselves in cooperatives(that’s not socialism but anarch-syndicalism) , as opposed to being owned by greedy plutocrats(his buddies) who pay shit wages and therefore make “super” profits. You wanna make “super” profits? Get rid of all safety and work regulations and get child laboreres to work 70 hours a week for 25 cents an hour!

    Greenspan is the one who characterizes himself as a libertarian. I’ve
    talked to people before who were republican who called themselves Greenspan republicans. Sure you can say they are the “true” libertarians. They’d say that about you!(Dope smokin’,heavy metal, anti war libertarian wannabe,etc)

    Anarcho syndicalism says the workers privately own the means of production. Got it? Not the State, and not some zillionaire investor,VC, or plutocrat. Now get high and let that in brother! :)

  10. CM

    I’ve often encountered the strange confusion that exists between the two diametrically opposed [economic] ideologies of capitalism and mercantilismfascism. It is important to realize that the economic component to fascism is often correctly termed as “corporatism.” Oddly, many individuals view this as a form of “free market” system when in reality corporatism is a partnership between government and big business (the former is always the senior partner however). In fact, the origin of the term corporatism is credited to the former fascist Italian dictator Benito Mussolini.

    The more heavily regulated a given economy becomes the more centralized it becomes. This, in turn, creates a situation where it becomes financially advantageous for Big Business to cozy up to the political class. As a result certain politically-favored businessesindustries are protected from smaller competitors, making it increasingly difficult for small business to compete with the politically connected.

    An excellent elucidation of what corporatismmercantilismfascism is would be the following article:

    Economic Fascism

  11. cowbot

    Newt Gingrich, who has consistently advocated lining up drug dealers and shooting them is not running? I’m devastated too.

    I was hoping to see Newt personally machine-gun down the employees or Merck, Hoffman Laroche, Pfizer …
    :)

  12. phil

    The paralells between Bush and Wilson are truly frightening. The only difference is that Wilson dug the grave and now Bush is nailing shut our coffin.

  13. Tom Blanton

    The only thing more absurd than a right-winger saying the free market system is working is a left-winger saying the free market system has failed. The reason why these ideas are absurd is that nothing remotely resembling a free market exists in America.

    The conservative Heritage Foundation rated America 9th in economic freedom in 2006:

    http://www.heritage.org/Press/NewsReleases/nr010406.cfm

    For 2007, America has moved up to 4th, just barely ahead of New Zealand, the UK, and Ireland:

    http://www.heritage.org/index/topten.cfm

    At best, America has what is known as a mixed economy, but some would say it is a fascist economy:

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo85.html

  14. Scott Post author

    Poland has been a disaster since the libertarians took over the place. It was going to be an anarchosyndicalist paradise! Truly sad. Oh, wait, I meant preposterous.

  15. SteveC

    Damn……Beaten to another Horton Christmas gift again…oh well, I guess you can never have too many Berkey Water Filters….Sorery Scott.

  16. Paul

    You still think I advocate state owned stuff. No. The cooperatives are PRIVATELY owned by the workers not the state, nor oligarchs, nor plutocrats. Anarcho syndicalism is not communism. You are being silly. :)

  17. CM

    “…the will of the majority can go and die.”

    “WOW, Get some help fascist. :)”

    Many mass movements have brought about fascism. The above statement is thus absurd. however I believe Scott Horton’s position correctly states the absurdity of being forced into a situation by the vote of another individual, thus his anarcho-capitalist beliefs (if I speak correctly).

  18. CM

    “200,000,000 died when Wilson lied.”

    Indeed. Effects from actions taken by democratic president. as opposed to a an authoritarian regime, lends credence to the realization of the absurdity of “the majority.” The United States should probably have kept the Articles of Confederation.

  19. Kevin

    Sorry, the argument goes to Klein IMHO.

    Give me the attributes of fundamentalist capitalism.

    They’re almost the attributes of every fundamentalist: the desire for purity, a belief in a perfect balance, and every time there are problems identified they are attributed to perversions, distortions within what would otherwise be a perfect system. I think you see this from religious fundamentalists and from Marxist fundamentalists, and I would argue that [Austrian economist Friedrich] Hayek and [University of Chicago economist Milton] Friedman shared this dream of the pure system. These are brilliant mathematicians, in many cases, so it looks perfect in their modelling. But I think anyone who falls in love with a system is dangerous, because the world doesn’t comply and then you get angry at the world.

  20. Scott Post author

    Kevin, all this about capitalism as religion is silly. I simply recognize that all of the worst evils in the world are caused, not prevented, by governments. There is no perfect system, nor do I believe there ever could be one. So to me that’s a red herring. It is perfectly legitimate to reject the Westphalia Nation-state arrangement. Real lefties reject it, Rockefeller rejects it, so do I. Thing is, I don’t see us all as one, I see us all as individuals so rather than pushing for bigger and bigger states, I want em smaller and smaller till they’re gone.

    Private property rights are simply the natural extension of individual rights. I own myself, I own that which I justly acquire, I can deal and trade with whoever I want and it’s no one’s business unless I violate them.

    This is religion?

    Libertarians do not argue that capitalism is perfect, but that it is morally consistent with liberty and provides the best checks and balances on accumulated power. And yes, the fact is, from inflation to outsourcing, pollution, clear cutting, war, and whatever your problem is, it is government which is responsible for the worst distortions and injustices in favor of those who have already succeeded.

    As far as spoiled rotten super rich being spoiled rotten and super rich, I don’t mind one little bit as long as they didn’t steal it. That, obviously and most especially includes collecting from the U.S. Treasury.

  21. kevin

    Kevin, all this about capitalism as religion is silly.

    She only said “I would argue that [Austrian economist Friedrich] Hayek and [University of Chicago economist Milton] Friedman shared this dream of the pure system. These are brilliant mathematicians, in many cases, so it looks perfect in their modelling. But I think anyone who falls in love with a system is dangerous” she didn’t call it a religion, just obsession with a system.

    The cause of evil is greed and corruption in Man. You, yourself are trying to get a man into the most powerful office in the history of the world. Does that make Ron Paul evil? Will it necessarily turn him evil. The love of money is the root of all evil.

  22. John Delano

    ” Super profit: When the CEO makes 47 zillion times MORE than the laborers who actually create the product and in reality could create the product without the CEO.”

    Could create the product without the CEO? Then why don’t they? Are you going to argue that they are held to work against their will? Or what is it?

    Is the state imposing some barrier to entry for the benefit of the existing corporations? If that is so, then that type of situation is NOT a free market.

    Could it be that the CEO might know how to organize the division of labor?

    “In Russia there was a very clear choice (by greedy capitalist “mafia”kleptocrats)not to democratically remake the economy, despite the fact that( 67 per cent of Russians stated that their preferred means of privatising state companies was to hand them over to the workers as workers’ cooperatives. )

    They (the russian people)wanted private ownership. They did not want the state to own it! Where in the hell did you get that from?!!!

    The people who agree with you are the free market gangster thugs who now run the Russian “Kleptocracy.” Dude, Lay off the dope smoking for awhile. :)

    Privatising state companies was to hand them over to the workers? There is nothing wrong with that if those companies weren’t stolen from anyone else to begin with. I would guess that Rothbard, Hoppe or Block might’ve argued that the workers would have the best claim to having homesteaded the company and therefor are the true owners. But what if one of those workers or many of those workers want to sell their share of the company to an entrepreneur who can organize it to operate more efficiently? Would you prevent those workers from doing that?

    “You wanna make “super” profits? Get rid of all safety and work regulations and get child laboreres to work 70 hours a week for 25 cents an hour!”

    Why don’t you try that and see how many children line up to collect that 25 cents an hour? You would find out that you would have a very hard time finding many. Maybe you would find a few who would be starving otherwise.

    “These are brilliant mathematicians, in many cases, so it looks perfect in their modelling.”

    If you knew much about Austrian economics, you would know that it is not based on mathematical models.

  23. Scott Post author

    “If you knew much about Austrian economics, you would know that it is not based on mathematical models.”

    I would just add here: Not AT ALL. But have you ever known a commie who argued against his opponent’s actual position rather than the argument he wished was being made?

  24. Paul

    “You wanna make “super” profits? Get rid of all safety and work regulations and get child laboreres to work 70 hours a week for 25 cents an hour!”

    Why don’t you try that and see how many children line up to collect that 25 cents an hour? You would find out that you would have a very hard time finding many. Maybe you would find a few who would be starving otherwise.

    The sneakers you and scott are wearing were probably made by a company who outsources to some country where poor kids indeed slave away all day for shit wages instead of going to school. Didn’t you know that?

  25. Scott Post author

    Paul: One more time rrrrrreeeeeeaaaaaallllllllllll sssssssslllllllllllllllllooooooooooowwwwwwwwlllllllllyyyyyy for you:

    Fascism and libertarianism are opposites. It is beyond ridiculous for you to keep pretending that our business here is defending the policies of the biggest government in the history of the galaxy and it’s corporate clients. Only someone ideologically committed to collectivism would continue to insist that support for liberty is support for Dick Cheney.

    DDDDDDDDDDDooooooooooooooooooo yyyyyyyyyyyyyooooooooooooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuu gggggggggggggeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetttttttttttttttttttttttt iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttttttttttttttttttttttt nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww?

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